[B-Greek] Luke 21:24 and the trampling of Jerusalem
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 23 17:49:58 EST 2008
Rolf,
I think you are misinterpreting what Carl said. What he said was NOT that the future periphrastic EXCLUDED that there was an ongoing situation at the time of the statement but rather that it did not specifically SPECIFY that there was such an ongoing condition. In answer to the question as to how one would specifically include an ongoing condition he opined that the imperfect would be required. I find no fault with that. Of course, context is the clue to everything, and your example of the NIV translation of Is 21.24 [LXX 47.7] is an example of context determining its significance since it is introduced by the speech formula "You said" which automatically throws it into the past.
george
gfsomsel
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defend the truth till death.
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_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Rolf Furuli <furuli at online.no>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:03:10 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 21:24 and the trampling of Jerusalem
Dear list-members,
Carl's explanations below are excellent. However,
I think the expression "would require" in the
last paragraph is too strong. I would like to
present some arguments regarding this point.
The original question is exegetical just as much
as it is grammatical. I will abstain from
exegesis, but I think it is good that we are
aware of the fact that an understanding of the
text of the New Testament is based on the
interplay of lexicon, grammar and exegesis and
not on lexicon and grammar alone.
The grammatical question is: Does the
periphrastic future exclude the possibility that
the actions described were ongoing, or that the
state described held when the words were uttered?
I think the answer is No. An example which is
quite parallel to Luke 21:24 is Isaiah 47:7 LXX.
The NIV translation of this verse is: 'You said,
"I will continue for ever - the eternal queen"'"
This is a translation of a Hebrew imperfective
form of the verb HYH (to be/become). The LXX
renders this with a perifrastic future (future of
eimi and pres. act. part. fem. of ARCW). The
context shows that this periphrastic construction
has the meaning "to continue to rule".
We also have an example i Hebrews 2:13. Here we
have a future of EIMI together with a perf. act.
part of PEIQW. The NIV says: "I will put my
trust in him." This is a quote from Isaiah 8:17
where the LXX has the same two words in reverse
order, and this is a rendering of a Hebrew
perfect with a preceding WAW. It is obvious that
the writer would not start to trust in YHWH in
the future, because he already did that. So his
trust was something that would continue.
In Matthew 10:22 we have a future of EIMI and a
present passive participle of MISEW. People had
already shown hatred for the followers of Jesus,
so this was not something that exclusively should
start to occur in the future. These examples show
that a periphrastic future can be an expression
of a continuance of past actions or states, even
though this is not necessarily semantically
implied by the form itself, but only by the
context.
Then, what about the periphrastic future of Luke
21:24, what does it include? The answer is
dependent on how we understand the context, and
that is an exegetical question. Therefore I will
only comment on how our exegesis can influence
our grammatical views. Verse 20 is a prophecy
showing that Jerusalem shall be destroyed, and
verse 24 shows that the people of Judea would be
taken as prisoners to all the nations. Then comes
the periphrastic construction and the words that
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations for
a particular period of time. Because Jerusalem
first had to be destroyed before the trampling
could begin, and that happened many years after
the words were uttered, the only natural
conclusion that most people can draw is that the
periphrastic construction only refers to the
future.
However, the premise for this is that "Jerusalem"
in verse 20 has the same reference as "Jerusalem"
in verse 24. But is this not an obvious fact? How
can anyone claim that the reference of
"Jerusalem" is different in a context of four
verses? Please take a look at John 2:19. What
is the antecedent of the personal pronoun AUTON
in this verse (and in verse 20)? Grammatically
speaking there is no doubt that the antecedent is
NAOS. Therefore, the meaning must be that if the
literal temple was broken down in three days,
Jesus would raise the literal temple again in
three days. No other conclusion would have been
possible if verse 21 had not explicitly said that
it is wrong. Jesus had in mind the temple of his
body. This shows it is possible that the
reference of the same word may change inside a
small prophetic context.
The word "Jerusalem" is used with many different
references in the Bible, and because the words of
Luke 21:24 are a part of Jesus' great prophecy
about the last days, which is difficult to
understand, and where some words evidently are
used in a literal way and others in a symbolic
way, we cannot exclude the possibility that
"Jerusalem" can have different references in
verses 20 and 24. I am not saying that this is
the case; what I am saying is that we should
leave this matter to the exegetes. If we do so,
we are left with the grammatical situation that a
periphrastic future may very well describe a past
situation that continues into the future, but
whether this is the case in Luke 21:24 is a
matter of interpretation and not a matter of
grammar.
Best regards,
Rolf Furuli Ph.D
University of Oslo
>On Jan 21, 2008, at 8:06 PM, A Becker wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a question concerning the following clause from Luke 21:24:
>>
>>
>>
>> ?ɈɦÉÕÉ"É-ÉøÉŠ?É ?É-É-ÉøÉ« ¼ÉøÉ-ÉÕÉ"É
?ÉÀɉ ?¼?
>> ?É�ÉÀ?ÉÀ
>>
>> IEROUSALHM ESTAI PETOUMENH UPO EQNWN
>>
>>
>>
>> A translation of this clause is simple enough: "Jerusalem will be
>> trampled by [the] Gentiles". My question concerns the future
>> periphrastic construction ?É-É-ÉøÉ« ¼ÉøÉ-ÉÕÉ"É
?ÉÀɉ (ESTAI
>> PETOUMENH) here. I have recently come across an interpretation that
>> seems to think that idea behind the verb tense here is that the
>> trampling began at some point previous to Jesus' speaking and will
>> continue until some point in the future, e.g. "until the times of
>> the Gentiles are fulfilled". (see Ernest De Witt Burton, Syntax of
>> the Moods and Tenses in New Testament Greek. 1892, p. 36 who has
>> "and will [continue] to be trampled"). I, however, am unable to
>> see how the future periphrastic could be understood in this way.
>
>
>I think it's necessary to have the fuller text to see how this future
>periphrastic clause relates to and is clarified by the following
clause:
>
>Luke 21:24 ?ɈɦÉÕÉ"É-ÉøÉŠ?É ?É-É-ÉøÉ«
¼ÉøÉ-ÉÕÉ"É ?ÉÀɉ
>?¼? ?É�ÉÀ?ÉÀ, ?É'ɦɫ ÉÕ?
¼ÉŠÉ‰É¦É÷É�?É-É«ÉÀ
>ɻɸɫɦÉÕ? ?É�ÉÀ?ÉÀ
>IEROUSALHM ESTAI PATOUMENH hUPO EQNWN, ACRI hOU PLHRWSWSIN KAIROI
EQNWN.
>
>First, it should be noted that this is a simple future periphrastic
>formed with EIMI and the present participle; it is NOT a future
>perfect periphrastic (that would have to be ?É-É-ÉøÉ«
>¼Éˆ¼ÉøÉ-É‰É ?ÉÀɉ (ESTAI PEPATHMENH). Essentially this
future
>periphrastic conveys the same sense as the simple future
>¼ÉøÉ-ɉÉ�ÐÉ-ɈÉ-ÉøÉ« (PATHQHSETAI); if there's any
difference, it
>would lie in an emphasis upon continuity by use of the present passive
>participle. And that is precisely the emphasis that your question
>concerns.
>
>Second, an emphasis upon continuity is clearly present by virtue of
>the ACRI clause that follows and governs the understanding of ESTAI
>PATOUMENH. ?É'ɦɫ ÉÕ? + subjunctive indicates a terminal point
in
>the future at which time the continued trampling will cease -- but the
>trampling is to continue until that time has come.
>
>Third, there is no indication whatsoever of any trampling prior to the
>time of utterance of this prophecy; the reference is wholly to a
>future time, the siege of Jerusalem indicated in Lk 21:20 by
?É-ÉøÉÀ
>ɬ? ?ɬɉÉ-Ɉ É»É"ɻɊÉÕÉ"É ?ÉÀɉÉÀ ?¼?
>É-É-ɦɸÉ-ÉÕ¼?ɬÉ÷ÉÀ ?ɈɦÉÕÉ"É-ÉøÉŠ?É ,
É-?É-Ɉ É¡ÉÀ?É-Ɉ
>?É-É« ?ɡɡɫɻɈÉÀ ? ?ɦ?É É÷É-É«V Éø?É-?V.
(hOTAN DE
>IDHTE KUKLOUMENHN hUPO STRATOPEDWN IEROUSALHM, TOTE GNWTE hOTI HGGIKEN
>hH ERHMWSIS AUTHS). Presumably the reference is to the siege of
>Jerusalem by Vespasian's army in 69, although that specification
>doesn't bear on the grammatical question here. The point is that the
>trampling is something that will follow the encirclement and
>subsequent sack of Jerusalem by armies and the carrying away of
>captives at a time still lying in the future from the time when this
>prophecy is spoken.
>
>Wallace has a discussion of the (simple) future periphrastic on pp.
>648-9 -- he does note there the emphasis upon aspect in the participle
>(i.e., the continued trampling), but there's no specific discussion
>there about Luke 21:24.
>
>> So my questions are:
>>
>> 1. Could the future periphrastic construction be understood this
>> way? If so, what are some examples of this usage?
>
>Not with any notion that the action indicated by ESTAI PATOUMENH
>begins prior to the utterance of the prophecy. That's a notion you can
>scuttle right away. But it does clearly indicate continuous action in
>the future.
>
>> 2. If Luke had wished to convey the idea that Jerusalem's trampling
>> had begun at some point previous to Jesus' speaking and would
> > continue until some point in the future, what would verb would he
>> have used here?
>
>This would require, I think, an imperfect of the verb, something like
>HN PATOUMENH or EPATEITO; that would indicate that the trampling began
>prior to the utterance and is still going on at the time of the
>utterance.
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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