[B-Greek] What is it between you and I?
alexali at internode.on.net
alexali at internode.on.net
Wed Jul 2 23:25:33 EDT 2008
Hi David,
You shouldn't fear being shot - just point out that it *is* a Greek discussion.
In your previous post you wrote,
>Does "between you and I" sound odd to anyone else? It sounds completely normal to most people i hear today, including most preachers, but it still sounds odd to me. David McKay
It doesn't sound odd to me, simply because I, too, heard it frequently enough, though that doesn't mean it is right. By definition, "I" is a subject and so must be nominative and can't follow a preposition; to say "between I and you" places the "I" after its preposition and probably would sound odd even to those who say "between you and I".
But this is all pertinent to the Greek of the NT, in which we also occasionally "hear" a nominative after a preposition, e.g.
εἷς κατὰ εἷς:
•Mark 14:18 καὶ ἀνακειμένων αὐτῶν καὶ ἐσθιόντων ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν, Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι εἷς ἐξ ὑμῶν παραδώσει με ὁ ἐσθίων μετ᾿ ἐμοῦ. 19 ἤρξαντο λυπεῖσθαι καὶ λέγειν αὐτῷ εἷς κατὰ εἷς, Μήτι ἐγώ;
•John 8:9 οἱ δὲ ἀκούσαντες ἐξήρχοντο εἷς καθ᾿ εἷς ἀρξάμενοι ἀπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ... As G/Z, "εἷς καθ᾿ εἷς one by one, treated as indecl. (instead of εἷς καθ᾿ ἕνα)."
Rev 1:4 Ἰωάννης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ
Colossians 2:1 Θέλω γὰρ ὑμᾶς εἰδέναι ἡλίκον ἀγῶνα ἔχω ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν καὶ τῶν ἐν Λαοδικείᾳ καὶ ὅσοι οὐχ ἑόρακαν τὸ πρόσωπόν μου ἐν σαρκί, G/Z 'ὅσοι = ποσῶν ὅσοι all who, all the others who (καί being inclusive of foregoing).'
καθ᾿ εἷς:
Romans 12:5 οὕτως οἱ πολλοὶ ἓν σῶμά ἐσμεν ἐν Χριστῷ, τὸ δὲ καθ᾿ εἷς ἀλλήλων μέλη.
The following example is not quite the same, as Grosvenor/Zerwick's comment points out:
Used adverbially:
2Co 11:23 διάκονοι Χριστοῦ εἰσιν; παραφρονῶν λαλῶ, ὑπὲρ ἐγώ· ἐν κόποις περισσοτέρως, ἐν φυλακαῖς περισσοτέρως, ἐν πληγαῖς ὑπερβαλλόντως, ἐν θανάτοις πολλάκις. G/Z "ὑπέρ retaining its orig. advl force, ὑπὲρ ἐγώ 'I (go) beyond', I surpass them, I more so."
I wonder whether those who originally heard these would have had a sense of "oddness" about the language. In the case of εἷς κατὰ εἷς and of καθ᾿ εἷς I suspect not, but that these had become perfectly normal patterns of speech, just as "between you and I" has become. (And, just between you and me, I reckon that within a few years no-one will give it a second thought. How I remember the outrage I felt as a young man when I heard someone use "impact" as a verb, in violation of our noble tongue - didn't they know it was a noun?! But on rare occasions these days I gulp to hear myself use the word as a verb, and I simply don't bother to teach my children or my students otherwise.)
Alex Hopkins
Melbourne, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of David McKay
Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2008 12:06 PM
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] What is it between you and I?
I hope I won't get shot for beginning and continuing this non-Greek discussion. I think that the use of "I" for "me" may have originally been because people were often told to say "I" and not "me" but I don't think this is the reason that young people [and older people] say "between you and I" today.
When I have attempted to discuss this with people, I have been told that "you and me" is always wrong. It now sounds odd to people. And it was a 59 year old who told me this.
David McKay
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