[B-Greek] On Thayer and BDAG

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sun Jul 20 05:00:36 EDT 2008


On Jul 19, 2008, at 10:39 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:

> Mike wrote:
>  > Can anyone show me one clear thing wrong in Thayer that BDAG  
> corrects hEXIS? The gloss "habit" goes back to the Vulgate which  
> ironically was semantically correct at time time, but was  
> interpreted incorrectly later on.BDAG is correct because Lee wrote  
> an article on the lexical history of the word and it convinced Danker.
>
> hEXIS is a interesting example because Lee does makes a
> strong argument that in Heb 5:14 this means something
> closer to “condition” or “mature state” than “habit”
> or “practice,” which, as Lee notes, most of the versions
> go with.  But Thayer does NOT gloss hEXIS as
> “habit,” but instead writes:  “a habit, whether of body
> or mind; a power acquired by custom, practice, use.”
> This latter definition, recognizing that hEXIS can
> be the practice of something or the state attained from
> that practice, seems to me to anticipate exactly what
> Lee says.  And compare Thayer and BDAG here;
> Thayer actually cites and gives examples in Greek of
> MORE passages than BDAG does.  The entry in BDAG
> focuses solely on proving the point that hEXIS means
> “state of maturity”, which I guess is okay if it does mean
> that, but Thayer gives a more balanced treatment.

Etymology, like "a little Greek" is a dangerous thing, but with regard  
to hEXIS and any influence of Latin usage of HABITUS as an  
"equivalent," I think it helps to be aware of (a) the form of the word  
ἕξις hEXIS as a verbal process noun formed from the root ἐχ-  
(EC-) and the 3d-decl. process-noun formative element -σις/-σεως  
(-SIS/-SEWS) from the idiomatic usage of the verb ἔχω (ECW) with  
adverbs to indicate a condition in which the subject sustains a  
disposition. One might compare French idiomatic expressions such as  
"j'ai faim" ("I'm hungry") or "j'ai froid" ("I'm cold"); that usage  
still is current in the GNT, as can be noted in the phrase TOUS KAKWS  
ECONTAS (Mk 1:32) for "those who were ill" or "those who were in a bad  
way, healthwise." My own reading of BDAG's entry on hEXIS is that it  
is focused on "the only place in which it is used in our lit." (Heb.  
5:14) where "it refers to a state of maturity" -- but that it does  
initially point to the various meanings outside of the GNT.

> Carl (TECNH) and James (PNRA) gave examples where
> BDAG is better overall.  I’ll give some examples, in addition to
> hEXIS, where I think Thayer is better.  For STAMNOS,
> Thayer tells you it is from hISTHMI (this is particularly
> important because I did not know that) he gives you
> the Hebrew, and he refers you to the KATASTAMNIZEIN
> part of the wine making process.  BDAG gives none of
> these details and has nothing not already found in Thayer.
> Or, take a look at METEWPIZOMAI, where Thayer’s
> treatment is longer and more detailed.  In general, Thayer
> is much more likely to refer you to the root and give the
> Hebrew.  Carl is right that there is more in Bauer to study
> than in Thayer; BDAG gives some great passages written
> out in Greek, but Thayer does this too quite often.  Thayer includes
> more historical information in entries like Pharisee and Pilate.
> He has some neat appendixes which give words unique to
> NT writers and full parsing info on rare verb forms.
> I don’t object to saying that BDAG is a better lexicon than
> Thayer.  What I object to is what I have read many times,
> even on this list, statements like “Shortly after it was
> published, the discovery of the papyri made Thayer
> obsolete.”  This is sort of like, not a lot like, but sort of
> like, saying we should not read Hamlet any more because
> Shakespeare did not have access to satellite photographs of
> Denmark.  Anyway, I think we have reached a consensus, and
> have reduced the Thayer bashing and idolatry of BDAG to a
> more nuanced level.
>
> And as for George’s statement
>  You might consider that no one finds it particularly worth the  
> effort to take precious time to argue the matter with someone who is  
> determined to maintain a particular position.  If you wish to be  
> stubborn, that is your prerogative.  You won't get much support from  
> the academic community.
> The helpful responses I got from Carl, Mike, James, John et al  
> suggest that maybe
> George underestimates how supportive the academic community can be  
> even
> towards a stubborn, argumentative sinner like myself.  I would only  
> remind
> everyone of what Barry Goldwater said to his Classics teacher:   
> “Moderation in
> discussing lexicons is no virtue, and stubbornness in defense of  
> Thayer is no
> vice.”

This does not seem to me the most felicitous twist to be put on  
Goldwater's phraseology ("Extremism in the defense of liberty is no  
vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."  I recollect  
that 1988 campaign with its rhetorical excesses: "In your heart you  
know he's right!" "Yes, FAR right!" I've already disowned the business  
of selling one's first-born in order to acquire BDAG and I recollect  
saying about the "middle Liddell" what I would also say about Thayer:  
it's not so much that it's a "bad" lexicon or that it's not useful --  
even Barclay Newman's USB dictionary is not without its degree of  
utility (although I'd rather have Thayer, I think), it's just that I  
think that something better than Thayer is available and that the  
utility of such glosses as the USB dictionary offers is not very high.  
I had a geometry teacher once who seemed to think that, for learning  
geometry, we could hardly do better than use Euclid's book; he said  
about textbooks, "There are old books and good books; the good books  
are not new and the new books are not good." I'm more inclined to  
think that there are old books that are good (A.T. Robertson, for  
example) and there are newer books that are good (like BDAG). But  
tastes do differ, which is why George Bernard Shaw thought that the  
Golden Rule was not very practical. For myself I'd like to be the sort  
of GRAMMATEUS described in Matt. 13:52 πᾶς γραμματεὺς  
μαθητευθεὶς τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν  
οὐρανῶν ὅμοιός ἐστιν ἀνθρώπῳ  
οἰκοδεσπότῃ, ὅστις ἐκβάλλει ἐκ τοῦ  
θησαυροῦ αὐτοῦ καινὰ καὶ παλαιά. [PAS  
GRAMMATEUS MAQHTEUQEIS THi BASILEIAi TWN OURANWN hOMOIOS ESTIN  
ANQRWPWi OIKODESPOTHi, hOSTIS EKBALLEI EK TOU QHSAUROU AUTOU KAINA KAI  
PALAIA.].

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)






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