[B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Mon Jul 28 06:57:23 EDT 2008


I would question what seems to me implied in this phraseology of  
"searching for a final meaning of a word." (I apologize in advance for  
my use of upper-case characters for emphasis -- which I've been told  
is tantamount to "shouting" at readers -- but I prefer to use plain- 
text rather than styled text in e-mail, and I really do want to  
emphasize some of the words I'm using.)

I think we should expect lexical entries to assist users in thinking  
through the possibilities within the range of meanings that Greek  
words may have within the contexts that have been cataloged by the  
lexicographer, NOT to relieve the user of the responsibility to think  
carefully about these possibilities.

I do not think we should expect a good lexicon to exhaust the  
possibilities of rendering a phrase in a meaningful translation. In  
fact, I don't think that TRANSLATION is the focal concern o the  
lexicographer so much as UNDERSTANDING the usage of words within the  
contexts within which they are found within the geographical-temporal  
frame of reference set by the lexicographer.

We come here yet once again to a central issue that I have, for my  
part,  particularly tried to pinpoint in discussions of process and  
procedures for learning Greek: the distinction between UNDERSTANDING  
and TRANSLATING a Greek text. I think it is a fundamental error -- an  
error of perspective and approach to the language and to the essential  
tools available to the investigator of a Greek text -- to set about  
searching a lexical entry for a precise gloss to use in a translation  
of the Greek text in question. Our primary objective in approaching or  
"accessing" a Greek text is NOT production of a translation of that  
text into the target language but RATHER acquiring an UNDERSTANDING of  
the Greek text, which understanding must be utilized, if we want to  
take the FURTHER step of producing a translation into a target  
language. In other words, provision of some particular "suitable  
gloss" for use in a translation is NOT the PRIMARY concern of the  
lexicographer but rather a SECONDARY concern of the USER of a lexicon.

Perhaps the most useful feature -- one of them, certainly -- in a good  
lexical entry is the citation of snippets of Greek text illustrative  
of the usages within contexts for which the lexicographer has  
attempted to offer a "taxonomy." If we envision the function of the  
lexical entry as enabling us to UNDERSTAND the usage of the Greek word  
within "typical" contextual settings, I think we shall make better  
usage of the lexicon.

I would imagine, respectfully, that Vasile is not really concerned,  
when using BDAG, with finding  within a lexical entry for a Greek word  
the proper word to use in a translation of the text-in-question into  
Romanian. I remember from decades ago the discovery that German  
students in the Seminar für Klassische Philologie in Munich were using  
LSJ as their standard lexicographic reference work for ancient Greek,  
and realizing the implication of this: they were using LSJ as a tool  
for UNDERSTANDING the Greek word in cntext, NOT as a tool for  
producing a TRANSLATION into modern German.

Searching a lexical entry in BDAG, LSJ or elsewhere for the single  
"right" word to use for translating the Greek into a target language  
is comparable to that procedure of beginning students who attempt to  
"access" the Greek text of a clause by hunting for the subject and the  
verb and then allocating adverbs and adjectives to their appropriate  
positions within an analytical construct -- the mental equivalent of a  
graphic "outline" of a clause or sentence -- while thinking of each of  
the elements of the construct as an appropriate word in English or  
some other target language. I'm not saying that the graphic outlining  
is not a useful process, but it is a tool to assist and represent  
UNDERSTANDING the Greek text rather than to provide a magic key to  
TRANSLATING the Greek text into a target language.

It may well be (I have found it sometimes so) that the word we finally  
choose t convey in an English version some particular Greek word is  
not to be found in the lexical entry in LSJ or BDAG; it may be that we  
have to grasp mentally what we believe the Greek phraseology means and  
do the same thing we must always do when we attempt to tell someone as  
clearly and precisely what we mean: we search in our minds for the  
most effective means of expression for that idea within the resources  
of the language we are speaking.

Finally, the focal antithesis of my argument here is at the heart of  
my dislike, bordering on contempt, for the UBS glossary: insofar as  
that glossary functions to suggest a semantic range of meaning for the  
Greek word in question, it may be a "quick-and-dirty" aid to rapid  
reading of the GNT; BUT, if that glossary functions as a list of  
candidates, some single one of which is to fill the empty slot in a  
mental translation of the Greek phrase, then I think it is an  
instrument of the devil.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)



On Jul 27, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Vasile Stancu wrote:

> I appreciate this way of searching for a final meaning of a word.  
> Dictionaries/lexicons are very helpful indeed but sometimes they  
> just "encourage" one to search beyond the limits they unavoidably  
> have to have. Recently I found myself in a similar situation when  
> reading in Acts 22:22,25:
>
> ... οὐ γὰρ καθῆκεν αὐτὸν ζῆν.
> OU GAR KAQHKEN AUTON ZHN
>
> or
>
> ... προέτειναν αὐτὸν τοῖς ἱμᾶσιν...
> PROETEINAN AUTON TOIS IMASIN
>
> Neither the small UBS dictionary nor the BDAG give enough meanings,  
> I believe, for καθίημι ΚΑΘΙΗΜΙ and προτείνω  
> ΠΡΟΤΕΙΝΩ so as to fit these these instances.
>
> Vasile STANCU
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Carlton Winbery
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:58 AM
> To: Carl Conrad
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] BDAG - EPITIMAW
>
>> On Jul 27, 2008, at 2:16 PM, Oun Kwon wrote:
>>
>>> EPITIMAW
>>>
>>>
>>> I am briefly quoting from BDAG p. 384 (underlining is mine)
>>>
>>>
>>> (1) *to express strong disapproval of someone, rebuke, reprove,
>>> censure **
>>> also speak seriously, warn in order to prevent an action or brig one
>>> to an
>>> end** *
>>>
>>> (2*) punish*
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe BDAG should have separted out the part underlined ( *also
>>> speak
>>> seriously, warn in order to prevent an action or brig one to an
>>> end** *) and
>>> lists examples (e.g. Lk 9:21) separated. 'Rebuke" and 'Warn' are
>>> different
>>> enough to deserve to be treated separately.
>>
>> You may be thinking more in terms of the way English differentiates
>> these notions. My sense is that the fundamental sense of the Greek is
>> something like "speak judgmentally" -- a notion that is broader than
>> these various senses expressed in sensse (1) and also includes sense
>> (2).
>>
>> L&N have:
>> 33.331 ?¼É«É-É«É ?É÷ EPITIMAW b: to command, with the  
>> implication
>> of a threat - 'to command.'
>> and
>> 33.419 ?¼É«É-É«É ?É÷ EPITIMAW  a: to express strong  
>> disapproval of
>> someone - 'to rebuke, to denounce.'
>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
> When I see EPITIMAW I always think of Mark 8 and the confession of
> Peter at Caesarea Philippi. When Peter confessed "SU EI hO CRISTOS,"
> Jesus EPITIMHSEN  them that they should tell no one concerning him.
> When Jesus talked of the Son of Man suffering in Jerusalem, Peter
> began EPITIMAN him. Then Jesus turned, saw the disciples and
> EPITIMHSEN Peter with the words, "Get behind me Satan."
>
> If I had only Mark's version, I would not think that Jesus was
> pleased with Peter's confession.
>
> Carlton Winbery
>
> -- 
> Carlton L. Winbery
> Retired Professor of Religion
> Louisiana College
> 318-448-6103
> winberycl at earthlink.net
> ---
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>
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