[B-Greek] divine passive?

vunzndi at vfemail.net vunzndi at vfemail.net
Thu Jul 31 21:58:18 EDT 2008


Quoting George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>:

> I'm not sure why the "blessed" of the beatitudes is mentioned here  
> since there is no passive element.

My apologies I was thinking in English here, Blessed = Blessed by  
someone. Greek is not one of the languages I think in.

> While the category of "divine passive" has been mentioned by some,   
> it is simply a species of impersonal construction.
> .
> .
> It would thus seem that whether a passive construction is to be   
> considered a "divine passive" is basically a judgment call.
> .

Here we agree, basically the term "divine passive" is a matter of  
opinion, based   on subjective features.

Mind many other "terms" which at first glance sound objective are also  
judgement calls. So terms often become circular arguements - the  
phrases so labelled become the proof that the terminology.

Regards
John


>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> ? search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "vunzndi at vfemail.net" <vunzndi at vfemail.net>
> To: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson at milligan.edu>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 1:11:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] divine passive?
>
>
>   The passive, in most cases is the same as the middle, can have  
> many different usages or meanings. The whether or not something is  
> "divine passive" can in some cases be open to interpretation. In  
> many cases a question of what was in the mind of the author. Whereas  
> the "blessed" of the beatititudes is something almost everyone would  
> acknowledge as the use of a "divine passive", the example s from the  
> Lord's prayer are not so clear.
>
> The "divine passive" as such is common in many languages.  It would  
> be unusal to say the least however for someone to say I am now going  
> to use a "divine passive". The question one should ask is what is  
> being said here, what is being ment here. The answer one gives  
> however, depends as much on ones view of how the kingdom comes.  
> Those who view the coming of the kingdom as an act of God say it is  
> a divine passive, those who view the coming of the kingdom as  
> dependent upon human response would argue otherwise.
>
> Regards
> John Knightley
>
> Quoting "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson at milligan.edu>:
>
>> Dear List:
>>
>> I have been doing a lot of research on the use of the third person
>> imperatives in the Lord's Prayer (am reading this weekend at CBA on
>> this).  There are tons of questions about the use of these third person
>> imperatives.  Mine here is fairly precise.
>>
>> In Betz's commentary on the Lord's Prayer, and in a few other
>> references, Betz emphasizes that at least two of the imperatives are
>> passive, and he points to Blass-Debrunner for support that this is a
>> passivum divinum, a divine passive.  The references in BDF are sections
>> 130(1), 313, and 342 (1).
>>
>> By suggesting this is a divine passive (i.e., a passive that seeks to
>> avoid directly naming God), he is suggesting that it really is
>> functioning equivalent to a second person imperative, and thus God is
>> the agent for the actions (hallowing his name, doing his will; and by
>> extension bringing in his kingdom). And a corollary to this, then, is
>> that this is eschatological in focus, since all of this will not be
>> "done" until the eschaton. For a lot of reasons I have problems with
>> this, but mostly they focus on the nature of the third person
>> imperative, not the passive aspect.
>>
>> My question concerns this concept of the divine passive.  How extensive
>> of a concept is it?  Frankly, BDF's comments are obscure, and mostly (2
>> of the 3 entries) seem to be based on Jeremias's Eucharistic Words of
>> Jesus book.  Jeremias seems to see a lot coming out of Aramaic.  I could
>> not find a direct reference in Robertson or Moulton.
>>
>> Is the heavy influence of Aramaic presence really that apparent and
>> common in biblical prayers? In contemporary Greek, was a passive
>> commonly used in prayers to avoid naming God?  What little I could find
>> (including much earlier Homer, but also some Eleusinian prayers) it
>> seems that God is pretty directly named. And 2nd singular active
>> imperatives often used.  But I very much might be missing something
>> here. I would welcome your input on this.
>>
>>
>> [P.S. I have a hunch the passive is there for far more mundane reasons,
>> like obscuring or shifting the agent]
>>
>> Mark A. Matson
>> Academic Dean
>> Milligan College
>> http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
>>
>>
>>
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