[B-Greek] SWSON ... EK in JOHN 12:27

Bryant J. Williams III bjwvmw at com-pair.net
Wed Mar 5 17:34:52 EST 2008


Dear Elizabeth,

I wonder if some of the problem is due to the possible
Alexandrian/Hellenistic/Diaspora background in comparison to straight
Hellenistic background in the use of APO + gen. and EK + gen.? I ask this
considering the obvious use of the LXX in the Epistle to the Hebrews versus that
of the obvious Semitic/Asian background (if one postulates that John was written
in Ephesus).

En Xristwi,

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] SWSON ... EK in JOHN 12:27


> JOHN 12:27 NUN hH YUCH MOU TETARAKTAI, KAI TI EIPW; PATER, SWSON ME
> EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS; ALLA DIA TOUTO HLQON EIS THN hWRAN TAUTHN.
>
> B.F.Westcott (John 1881) claims that the a number of commentators
> have misconstrued the meaning of Jesus prayer PATER, SWSON ME EK THS
> hWRAS TAUTHS. According to Westcott SWSON ME EK does not mean deliver
> me from having to experience "this hour" but rather deliver me out of
> the experience (awkward English). He wasn't the first to suggest this
> (see H.Alford). Westcott states that EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS should not
> be read as if it were APO THS hWRAS TAUTHS.
>
> Here are some samples of SWZW + EK in the NT.
>
> HEB. 5:7 hOS EN TAIS hHMERAIS THS SARKOS AUTOU DEHSEIS TE KAI
> hIKETHRIAS PROS TON DUNAMENON SWiZEIN AUTON EK QANATOU META KRAUGHS
> ISCURAS KAI DAKRUWN PROSENEGKAS KAI EISAKOUSQEIS APO THS EULABEIAS,
>
> JAMES 5:20 GINWSKETW hOTI hO EPISTREYAS hAMARTWLON EK PLANHS hODOU
> AUTOU SWSEI YUCHN AUTOU EK QANATOU KAI KALUYEI PLHQOS hAMARTIWN.
>
> JUDE 5 hUPOMNHSAI DE hUMAS BOULOMAI, EIDOTAS [hUMAS] PANTA hOTI [hO]
> KURIOS hAPAX LAON EK GHS AIGUPTOU SWSAS TO DEUTERON TOUS MH
> PISTEUSANTAS APWLESEN,
>
> Perhaps Jude 5 EK GHS AIGUPTOU SWSAS lends some support to Westcott's
> (John 1881) reading of SWSON ... EK in  JOHN 12:27. However, HEB. 5:7
> is also a difficult text and Westcott (Hebrews 1891) seems to back
> off a little from his statements in the John commentary. He appears
> to admit two ways of reading SWiZEIN AUTON EK QANATOU in HEB. 5:7:
> "The phrase covers two distinct ideas, 'to save from physical death
> so that it should be escaped,'to  bring safe out of death into a new
> life.' In the first sense the prayer recorded in John xii.27 was not
> granted, that it might be granted in the second." The first reading
> 'to save from physical death so that it should be escaped' runs into
> trouble at the end of verse 7: KAI EISAKOUSQEIS APO THS EULABEIAS.
> (See also Ellingworth Hebrews NIGTC p.288, Koester AB p.288.)  In
> what sense were Jesus prayers and petitions heard if he was asking to
> escape the experience of "physical death"[1]?
>
> On the semantic distinction between APO + gen. and EK + gen. it seems
> that there is some overlap in NT usage. I am not certain how much
> weight we should place on this distinction.
>
> Elizabeth Kline
>
> [1] 120 years after Westcott's Hebrews the expression "physical
> death" seems to exclude some very real aspects of Jesus suffering and
> death, and what he might have been wishing to avoid if indeed he is
> asking to avoid here as in the prayer in the garden.]
>
>
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