[B-Greek] Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
Albert Pietersma
albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Sat Mar 8 18:05:46 EST 2008
On Mar 8, 2008, at 4:32 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
> While it is true that 11.15 and 22.5 use APEXW and do not have a
> causative sense, neither of them are in a genitive of the articular
> infinitive construction. The first sing pronoun as the object of
> the infinitive would be in the accusative. See Rom 1.24
>
> Διὸ παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς ἐν
> ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῶν καρδιῶν
> αὐτῶν εἰς ἀκαθαρσίαν τοῦ
> ἀτιμάζεσθαι ** τὰ σώματα ** αὐτῶν ἐν
> αὐτοῖς·
> DIO PAREDWKEN AUTOIS hO QEOS EN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS TWN KARDIWN AUTWN
> EIS AKAQARSIAN TOU ATIMAZESQAI ** TA SWMATA ** AUTWN EN AUTOIS
But, George, I don't see APEXESQAI being used in Rom 1:24. Moreover,
are you suggesting that a given verb when used in a TOU + Inf
construction suddenly take a different object than it otherwise does?
>
> Since the two instances of the verbs ποιοῦσιν [POIOUSIN]
> immediately preceding in the sentence are 3rd pl, I would expect
> that the subject of ἀπέχεσθαι [APEXESQAI] to likewise be
> 3rd pl making the understood ME the object.
That presupposes, does it not, that APEXOMAI (a) means something like
"drive away" and that as such (b) it has its direct object in the
accusative. Neither would seem to be the case. APEXOMAI commonly
means "to keep oneself away," and when it is specified what one keeps
oneself away from, we find a genitive or an APO phrase, as in fact we
have in 8:6. Thus if 8:6 is to mean "they keep themselves away FROM
ME from my holy things" would we not need . . . TOU APEXESQAI (APO)
EMOU APO TWN hAGIWN MOY?
What am I missing?
Al
>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 2:00:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
>
> I wonder, George. While it is true that Iezek often renders the sg.
> of MQDS by a neuter plural, at times (e.g. 11.16; 45:4, 18; 48:8, 21)
> he uses a singular term. That would seem to suggest that when he
> uses the plural he has in mind a bit more than a given spot. In any
> case, the plural reference includes, I should think, the entire
> complex of structutes (precincts), including the paraphernalia.
> You are right, Iezek 8:6 is somewhat ambiguous on this score, given
> APEXOMAI. For its other uses in Iezek see 11:15 and 22:5, neither one
> of which, as one would expect, is causative. Therefore if ME is to be
> supplied in 8:6 it would have to be as subject, not object (which in
> any case would not be accusative). But to presuppose a switch in
> subject, from the main verb, would be rather odd, the more since no
> discrete pronoun is supplied in the subordinate clause.
> Ergo, I still think Noel did the right thing, and in fact was
> circumspect in using "holy things" rather than "holy place", as he
> sometimes does elsewhere.
> Al
>
> On Mar 8, 2008, at 12:22 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
> > You have caused a small amount of confusion by your subject heading
> > of "Ezek 6:6" when it is actually 8.6. I have adjusted it
> > accordingly.
> >
> > καὶ εἶπεν πρός με Υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου,
> > ἑώρακας τί οὗτοι ποιοῦσιν; ἀνομίας
> > μεγάλας ποιοῦσιν ὧδε τοῦ
> > ἀπέχεσθαι ἀπὸ τῶν ἁγίων μου, καὶ
> > ἔτι ὄψει ἀνομίας μείζονας.
> >
> >
> > KAI EIPEN PROS ME, "hUIE ANQRWPOU, hEWRAKAS TI hOUTOI POIOUSIN?
> > ANOMIAS MEGALAS POIOUSIN hWDE TOU APEXESQAI APO TWN hAGIWN MOU,
> > OYEI ANOMIAS MEIZONAS."
> >
> > While the LXX must ultimately be understood on its own, it is
> > sometimes helpful to take a look at the Hebrew upon which it is
> > based. While the text here referenced is translated from the
> > Hebrew largely as "to drive me from", which would seem to be the
> > piel form. The verb here in its basic form (qal), which is
> > generally indicated, is simply "to be distant." In the piel form
> > it becomes "to send away." Since the verb is what is known in
> > Hebrew grammar as a II gutteral or `ayin gutteral, which means that
> > the second radical is a gutteral, it is conceivable that it could
> > be a piel form since the gutteral rejects the dagesh which is one
> > of the distinguishing marks of the piel.
> >
> > The Greek seems not to have a causative connotation. The genitive
> > of the articular infinitive which we see in τοῦ
> > ἀπέχεσθαι [TOU APEXESQAI] would indicate a final or
> > causative event. The μου [MOU] must most reasonably be construed
> > with τῶν ἁγίων [TWN hAGIWN], which is another problem with
> > the LXX of this verse since it is singular in Hebrew, but this
> > seems to not be uncommon in the LXX. I would think that it would
> > better have been translated as "my Holy Place" and to understand
> > τοῦ ἀπέχεσθαι [TOU APEXESQAI] in a causative sense
> > supplying με [ME] which is not specified in the Greek as the
> > object of the phrase. Thus understood, the LXX reading would yield
> > much the same as the traditional reading of the MT.
> >
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> >
> > … search for truth, hear truth,
> > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> > defend the truth till death.
> >
> >
> > - Jan Hus
> > _________
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>
> > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 10:27:37 AM
> > Subject: [B-Greek] Ezek 6:6
> >
> > NETS translates the central passage in Ezek 8:6 as
> > "they are committing great acts of lawlessness here by
> > keeping themselves far from my holy things" (hWDE TOU
> > APECESQAI APO TWN hAGIWN MOU). Given the context --
> > God is about to leave the temple -- I think, this does
> > not make sense. Is there some pressing grammatical
> > reason for changing "so that I [that is, God] should
> > keep away ..." into what the NETS version offers?
> >
> > Bogdan Bucur
> >
> >
> > ---
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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