[B-Greek] Translating Participles

John Wilking jcwilking at yahoo.com
Sun Nov 16 08:38:24 EST 2008


Carl,

I know that understanding must come before translating. You can't translate what you don't understand, but what do you mean by the word "art"?

John C. Wilking


--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:

> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating Participles
> To: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: javajedi2 at yahoo.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 7:37 AM
> On Nov 16, 2008, at 6:45 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
> 
> > Randall will, of course, tell you that the object is
> not translation  
> > (and it isn't the object); but there are
> relatively few who can take  
> > the time off from other pursuits and spend the money
> to fly off to  
> > attend an immersion course in the language.  Most of
> us will be  
> > exposed to the language one hour per day for a maximum
> of five days  
> > per week (and more likely for three days per week). 
> Copious reading  
> > is the key to gaining a feeling for what is going on
> in the  
> > language.  In the beginning man created a translation.
>  And he saw  
> > the translation and said, "This sucks !"  So
> he read some more and  
> > tried again.  As he read his facility improved.  This
> continued for  
> > 70 years (well, perhaps less).  And, at the end of the
> 70 years, he  
> > said "hEURHKA!  I have begun to understand
> this."
> 
> And part of what he understood is that s/he doesn't
> have to translate  
> it in order to understand it, that s/he may be able to
> understand it  
> and still not translate it, that s/he will much sooner come
> to  
> understanding than to the ability to translate it --
> because  
> translating is an art.
> 
> > Thomas is correct.  What the participle posits is a
> relationship  
> > between the activities mentioned.  What words you use
> to indicate  
> > this relationship may change depending upon what you
> consider that  
> > relationship to be.  Is it temporal "he did X
> then he did Y"?  Is it  
> > indicating a concurrent event "While doing X he
> did Y"?  You need to  
> > develop a feel for this.  Language is not simply the
> plugging in of  
> > exchangeable parts.  You don't exchange part A for
> part X and part B  
> > for part Y in each and every case.  A grammar can
> provide some  
> > guidelines to get you started, but the grammar is not
> the final word.
> 
> All of which is sound doctrine.
> 
> I might add something that you should not take amiss, Ken:
> I think you  
> are discovering what I first began to understand as a TA in
> grad  
> school: that when one begins teaching Greek, one comes
> increasingly to  
> understand Greek grammar; when you have to explain it to
> someone else,  
> you have to develop an intelligible explanation for how the
> language  
> works. For me that meant, as I think you're realizing
> it means for  
> you, coming to appreciate lots of things that never really
> made that  
> much sense before (and perhaps finding out that the
> grammars don't do  
> all that good a job of explaining things either).
> 
> > From: Kenneth Litwak <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>
> > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 2:32:11 AM
> > Subject: [B-Greek] Translating Participles
> >
> >   I've now consulting five or so beginning
> grammars on translating  
> > participles because of a difference between the
> grammars that may  
> > only have significance in English but that's where
> students are.
> >
> >   The issue is what helping verbs/words to use with a
> given tense.
> > Depending upon which grammar I use, I could translate
> PROSELQWN  
> > APEKULISEN "After coming to (the tomb) he/she/it
> rolled away' or  
> > "having come to (the tomb) he/she/it rolled
> away" or "when he had  
> > come to (the tomb) he rolled away".  If I use
> "having" as some  
> > grammars do, then this could be confused by students
> with the  
> > perfect participle, which I might translate the same
> way.
> >
> > Mark 1:4 KAI KHRUSSWN BAPTISMA could be "and
> preaching a baptism,"  
> > "and while preaching a baptism," "and
> while he was preaching a  
> > baptism," or even "and he was
> preaching."  In one grammar, "was"  
> > would not be used for a present active participle but
> for an aorist  
> > active participle.  In another grammar,
> "was/were" could be used for  
> > a present active participle and
> "have/has/having" for an aorist  
> > while in another "have/has/having" would be
> reserved for a perfect  
> > active participle.  I learned to use
> "having" for the aorist, not  
> > only the participle but sometimes even the aorist
> indicative if that  
> > made sense in English.  I recognize that the most
> important thing is  
> > whether the action is contemporary with, prior to or
> future to the  
> > action of the main verb but we still need to know what
> words to use  
> > to convey that as umambiguously in English as
> possible. I would like  
> > to be able to say to my students something like,
> "You can use 'was/ 
> > were' with a present
> > participle and 'have/has/having with an aorist or
> perfect  
> > participle" or some other variation but they need
> some guidance as  
> > to what is correct and when I'm seeing grammars
> disagree with each  
> > other, it's hard to give advice that is very
> helpful unless I just  
> > say "You're using Mounce.  Do what he says.
> Period."  That to me,  
> > however, is not the way to learn a language.  In fact,
> at the risk  
> > of challenging my own question here, I recently heard
> a comment to  
> > the effect that the entire Zondervan approach to
> learning languages  
> > was a problem in that it presumed you could have a lot
> more  
> > precision than was warranted. I certainly see that. 
> Translation has  
> > a lot of art to it, but at the same time, there would
> certainly have  
> > been some sense of distinction in the minds of Greek
> speakers, even  
> > if we can't know what that was exactly.
> >
> >   I'd like to be able to create a chart for my
> students of  
> > translation choices for the different tenses, but
> right now, I don't  
> > think I can constrain those choices very much. 
> Suggestions?  Thanks.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> 
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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