[B-Greek] Further Study

Daniel, Robert S rob.daniel at hp.com
Wed Apr 8 12:31:50 EDT 2009


I was hoping you would say that BLC is developing an extended version of Living Koine Greek part 1 that would cover all the vocabulary of the NT, or even all the non-specialized vocabulary of an educated 1st-century Koine speaker. :-) Just doing some crude estimations, if LKG part 1 introduces a vocabulary of about 250 words, and the NT has a vocabulary of about 5000+ words, LKG part 1 would need to be about 20 times the size to cover the NT vocabulary. I have some lexicons that are used for secondary school students such as Schuler Duden. These lexicons contain on the order of 20,000 to 30,000 entries, so using that as a rough estimate of the size of a basic adult vocabulary, LKG part 1 would need to be blown up to 80 to 100 times it present size. That is just the passive language materials.

Given that there isn't going to be an LKG part 1 on steroids any time in the near future, is there something else that we students can do using existing materials that might have some of the same benefits? I've been experimenting with listening to recordings of the NT being read in Greek, for instance just listening, understanding only bits and pieces, listening while following the Greek text, and listening while following an English translation. Also doing the hard work of looking up words I don't understand, and listening over and over until I can listen, say, to the Gospel of Mark with maybe around 80 to 90 percent comprehension without looking at any text. I am hoping that this approach will bear fruit, but it is too soon to tell. Also it is hard to tell how long it will take and whether my enthusiasm will run out before I get to the point where I can read any part of the NT fluently, without stopping to parse and look up dozens of words.

Does anybody who is further along have any experience with this sort of approach?
Rob Daniel

________________________________
From: Randall Buth [mailto:randallbuth at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:47 PM
To: Daniel, Robert S
Cc: Charles Johnson; B Greek
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Further Study



On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Daniel, Robert S <rob.daniel at hp.com<mailto:rob.daniel at hp.com>> wrote:
Maybe you don't need native speakers, but the natural way we learn our native language does involve native speakers. If we don't have the opportunity of being immersed in an environment of native speech, we have to do something artificial that is an effective substitute for the natural language-learning environment. I don't think grammar and translation is it.

You are correct, grammar translation can't do this. But historically, second language users have been able to create learning environments. Take rabbinic yeshivot over a millenium.


I think that part of the difficulty is that children, before they begin to speak full-blown properly formed sentences, are exposed to a large volume of spoken language. They acquire passive language skills -- listening -- before they acquire the active skills of speaking, and before reading and writing. How can a learner expose himself to such a volume of spoken Koine Greek that he can acquire a solid foundation of passive skills upon which to build the active skills?

that is exactly what we do at BLC. If only the powers that be in Christian higher education would fund the kind of environment necessary to produce a full program that goes to a level where students could discuss Paul in Greek (or Isaiah in Hebrew). It takes more than 6 or 12 weeks of an immersion school.

Especially working on one's own!
Rob Daniel

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org>] On Behalf Of Randall Buth
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:44 PM
To: Charles Johnson
Cc: B Greek
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Further Study

why are you looking for 'native speakers'? Isn't it possible to learn a language with second language users? language learning and use is a spiraling affair.
Randall Buth

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Charles Johnson <cpj5117 at gmail.com<mailto:cpj5117 at gmail.com>> wrote:

> I see what you're getting at. It makes sense. The ideal would be to
> participate in a community of native Koine-Greek speakers, where I
> could constantly be exposed to Koine Greek and learn and grow through
> the effort of composing my own thoughts in Koine. However, there is no such community.
> Unless I have constant recourse to native speakers, my own
> compositions will be horrendously Anglicized and without correction.
> Even when I do get an ok Greek composition, the telltale signs of an
> English speaker (sub-verb-obj; adj before noun) are still all too
> visible. Is there a way through this impasse?
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com<mailto:randallbuth at gmail.com>>wrote:
>
>> you've just taken the first step. knowing that there is somewhere to
>> go is step one.
>> step two is tricky. language learning seems to take place at right
>> angles to what some might expect. a clue: if you had done 27 units of
>> German would you be able to express a few thoughts? would you have
>> more of an idea about how to go about it? the biggest paradox of all
>> is that you learn a language by using a language, but the learner
>> always asks how one can use what they don't know.
>>  Randall Buth
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Charles Johnson <cpj5117 at gmail.com<mailto:cpj5117 at gmail.com>>wrote:
>>
>>> Terry, thank you for the bibliography. When I say I can read, I mean that
>>> I can without too much difficulty take Greek and make English out of it.
>>> There are many times, though, when I do not comprehend the "why" behind the
>>> "what." I cannot always explain why a particular voice, tense, or mood was
>>> chosen, or why a certain word ordering. In fact, my classes focused very
>>> little on word order.
>>>
>>> Dr. Buth, I tried. It didn't go so well. I have done very limited
>>> composition (especially oral). I also have no background in Classical Greek,
>>> a detriment I'm sure. It was a useful exercise in showing me I have a long
>>> way to go. It strikes me, though, that I have to improve my skill at
>>> understanding what's really going on in the Greek language before I can
>>> replicate it myself. Any suggestions?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com<mailto:randallbuth at gmail.com>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> >I am looking for recommendations for further study
>>>> resources/programs/readings. I am a seminarian who has completed about
>>>> 27
>>>> credit hours of Biblical Greek. I am comfortable reading in almost all
>>>> of
>>>> the NT (Hebrews is still hard) and have a grammatical understanding at
>>>> about
>>>> the level of Wallace's *Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics*. I am
>>>> particularly
>>>> interested in resources that will help me apprehend the grammar more
>>>> precisely.
>>>> Thanks for all the wisdom,
>>>> Charlie Johnson>
>>>>
>>>> It is important to discovrer what one doesn't know so that it gets
>>>> filled in.
>>>> Try speaking your next three thoughts to yourself in Koine Greek, and
>>>> see
>>>> if you don't discover something.
>>>> Randall Buth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Randall Buth, PhD
>>>> www.biblicalulpan.org<http://www.biblicalulpan.org>
>>>> randallbuth at gmail.com<mailto:randallbuth at gmail.com>
>>>> Biblical Language Center
>>>> Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Randall Buth, PhD
>> www.biblicalulpan.org<http://www.biblicalulpan.org>
>> randallbuth at gmail.com<mailto:randallbuth at gmail.com>
>> Biblical Language Center
>> Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
>>
>>
>


--
Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicalulpan.org<http://www.biblicalulpan.org>
randallbuth at gmail.com<mailto:randallbuth at gmail.com>
Biblical Language Center
Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
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--
Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicalulpan.org<http://www.biblicalulpan.org>
randallbuth at gmail.com<mailto:randallbuth at gmail.com>
Biblical Language Center
Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life




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