[B-Greek] Musings over John 1:16
Margaret Sim
margaret_sim at sil.org
Thu Apr 16 12:04:58 EDT 2009
Donald,
It sems to me that hOTI links both the 'dwelling' in v.14 and the 'grace',
i.e. the immanence of the LOGOS and his giving grace to his people.
My mention of Epictetus refers to his section or chapter headings: he begins
five of these with hOTI which suggests that it is a particle which
introduces what he wants to discuss, or it represents the topic he is about
to handle. Actually since Arrian recorded the Discourses, it would have been
his decision and he himself wrote in Attic! I presume therefore that an
initial hOTI was acceptable to Greeks of 1st century CE.
As your following email says, the hOTI of v. 16 is usually taken as causal,
but in v. 17 my own suggestion is that it introduces a well known saying
(note the parataxis and parallelism).
Yours,
Margaret Sim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald COBB" <docobb at orange.fr>
To: "Margaret Sim" <margaret_sim at sil.org>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Musings over John 1:16
> Sorry, I sent this directly to Mary Sims, and not to B-Greek!
>
> Donald Cobb
> - - - - - - - -
>
> Many thanks to Iver Larsen and Mary Sims for their comments. I still have
> questions though. My personal inclination also is to connect v. 16 to v.
> 14.
> The similarities in terms of vocabulary invite the connection, and v. 15
> seems to break up that tie-in. But in what way does hOTI explicate the
> connection?
>
> Iver, it seems to me that the suggestion "because (hOTI) we have received
> some of that 'fullness', then we have been able to perceive the greatness
> of
> his glory" goes in a different direction from what the prologue actually
> says. I would be more inclined to interpret v. 14b as a reference to the
> seeing that is connected to the Word becoming flesh in 14a: "We saw the
> glory of the one who put up his tent among us" (the same idea will be
> picked
> up again in 2:11 and elsewhere). KAI ETHEASAMETHA is the logical
> consequence
> of EGENETO and ESKHNWSEN. It's difficult for me to see v. 16 as the
> explication or "reason" of v. 14b. It seems more natural to see v. 16 as
> that which explains v. 17, which is introduced by its hOTI: "We have
> received a fullness of overabundant grace *because* grace and truth have
> come about through Jesus Christ". The fact that v. 18 begins with an
> asyndeton tends to isolate v. 17 as the culminating point of the
> preceeding
> development, i.e., the reason for the writer's and readers' "receiving
> fullness".
>
> So where does that leave the hOTI that begins v. 16? If it's not
> causal--or
> "representational", Mary, if I've correctly understood your terminology in
> my rapid perousal of your chapter (many thanks!)--then it seems to be
> hanging somewhat loosely. X. Léon-Dufour, in his commentary, translates:
> "Yes, from his fullness we have received". Could we then say, along with
> Léon-Dufour and Ridderbos, that the clause introduced by hOTI (v. 16)
> functions as a summary of what precedes (including perhaps also v. 15)?
>
> Mary, in the quote that you give from Epictetus, page 206, hOTI simply
> announces a summary of what follows. Would we be close to BDAG's 4b that
> Iver cited ("The subordination is oft. so loose that the transl. for
> recommends itself "), i.e., "for" as something so loose that we probably
> shouldn't be looking too closely for the logical connection? Somewhat
> along
> those lines, I noticed this entry in M-M under hOTI (4):
>
> hOTI DE TAUTA ALHQHI LEGOI, ESTIN GRAMMATA AUTHS DI' hWN hOMOLOGEI
> EILHPENAI.
>
> ὅτι δὲ ταῦτα ἀληθῆι λέγωι, ἔστιν γράμματα αὐτῆς δι' ὧν ὁμολογεῖ εἰληφέναι.
>
> M-M give the following translation: "and in proof that I am telling the
> truth, there are the documents in which she admits that she has received
> them (wages)". If the hOTI is indeed free-standing here, then it seems
> close
> to Epictetus' chapter heading.
>
> Does anyone know of other examples along these lines? Once again, I would
> be most interested in any thoughts or reactions.
>
> Donald Cobb
> Aix-en-Provence, France
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Margaret Sim" <margaret_sim at sil.org>
> To: "Donald COBB" <docobb at orange.fr>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Musings over John 1:16
>
>
>>
>> Donald,
>> Greetings from Scotland! I found your comments very interesting and it is
>> true as Elizabeth says that 'M.Sim sees it as representational' (i.e.
>> hOTI). Also I would agree with Ivor that verse 15 is an 'aside' with the
>> hOTI of verse 16 referring back to 14 and supportng what is said there
>> and elaborating on the 'grace' metioned there. Verse 17 also begins with
>> hOTI but I would suggest that in that context it is introducing a well
>> known saying (pure speculation of course) because of the clear
>> parallelism in its form. You will have noticed that p66 has DE after
>> XARIS in that verse.
>> With reference to the linking of 7:35: I'm not convinced by this. That
>> verse is an echo of what Jesus had just said 'you will not find me' and
>> hOTI introduces that 'echo'.
>> I have been very nervous about commenting to the B-Greek list but I hope
>> this may not be completely useless.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Margaret Sim
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Donald COBB" <docobb at orange.fr>
>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:41 AM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Musings over John 1:16
>>
>>
>>> Hello folks,
>>>
>>> I've been looking over the Prologue to John's Gospel over the last few
>>> days, and keep coming up against the hOTI that opens v. 16 :
>>>
>>> hOTI EK TOU PLHRWMATOS AUTOU hHMEIS PANTES ELABOMEN KAI CARIN ANTI
>>> CARITOS
>>>
>>> The usual meaning of hΟΤΙ would be "for / because". The textual variant
>>> (replacing hOTI with KAI) shows that the construction is difficult, and
>>> several commentators suggest looking at v. 15 as an intrusive secondary
>>> addition, observing that v. 16 flows much more naturally from v. 14.
>>> From the point of view of vocabulary and progression of thought, the
>>> point is well taken. It seems to me, however, that even if we connect v.
>>> 16 directly to v. 14, keeping the meaning as "because", the logical
>>> connection still remains problematical.
>>>
>>> BDAG, under 5,c, gives "so that (as a result)" as a possible function of
>>> hOTI, referring to Jn 7:35 as an example:
>>>
>>> POU hOUTOS MELLEI POREUESQAI hOTI hMEIS OUC hEURHSOMEN AUTON; "...so
>>> that we will not find him?"
>>>
>>> That seems like an interesting option for 1:16, with the result that v.
>>> 16 then opens up a new thought, building on v. 15 (or directly on v. 14
>>> or even the two verses together, thus, e.g., Ridderbos). The difficulty,
>>> as I see it, is that the only examples given use hHOTI to open an
>>> apodosis. My question, then, is twofold: firstly, can hOTI bear this
>>> meaning at the beginning of a new clause, and not merely in an apodosis?
>>> Secondly, does anyone have examples of such a usage elsewhere in Koine
>>> Greek, inside or outide the NT?
>>>
>>> Any other suggestions for translation? Thanks in advance for your input.
>>>
>>>
>>> Donald Cobb
>>> Aix-en-Provence, France
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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