[B-Greek] John3 3,7 revisited ?born again?
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Apr 21 12:44:14 EDT 2009
Agreed. I think there are only about two situations in which Hebrew / Aramaic could be brought into the discussion:
(1) Hebrew / Aramaic transliterated into Greek (ελωι ελωι λεμα σαβαχθανι; ELWI ELWI LEMA SABAXQANI?)
(2) Quotations / references to the OT: I can only think of one offhand -- make that two.
Gal 3.16
τῷ δὲ Ἀβραὰμ ἐρρέθησαν αἱ ἐπαγγελίαι καὶ τῷ σπέρματι αὐτοῦ.οὐ λέγει·καὶ τοῖς σπέρμασιν, ὡς ἐπὶ πολλῶν ἀλλʼ ὡς ἐφʼ ἑνός·καὶ τῷ σπέρματί σου, ὅς ἐστιν Χριστός.
TWi DE ABRAAM ERREQHSAN hAI EP;AGGELIAI KAI TWi SPERMATI AUTOU, OU LEGEI, "KAI TOIS SPERMASIN, hWS EPI POLLWN ALL' hWS EF' hENOS, KAI TWi SPERMATI SOU, hOS ESTIN XRISTOS
In both Greek and Hebrew "seed" is a collective of which I'm sure Paul was aware so that, strictly speaking, his argument doesn't hold water.
Rev 6.8
καὶ εἶδον, καὶ ἰδοὺ ἵππος χλωρός, καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ ὄνομα αὐτῷ [ὁ]θάνατος, καὶ ὁ ᾅδης ἠκολούθει μετʼ αὐτοῦ
KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU hIPPOS XLWROS, KAI hO KAQHMENOS EPNAW AUTOU ONOMA AUTWi [hO] QANATOS, KAI hO AiDHS HKOLOUQEI MET' AUTOU
In his commentary on Revelation R. H. Charles has a note that the word θάνατος QANATOS here may be a translation of the Hebrew word DeBeR meaning "plague" which the LXX renders as θάνατος QANATOS in Num 14.12.
Another which some might put forward is the // passages in the gospels regarding the ὀφθαλμός πονηρὸς OFQALMOS PONHROS, but I think it is perfectly clear as speaking of an unhealthy eye as opposed to a healthy eye so no backtranslation is needed.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: theomann at comcast.net
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 12:01:52 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John3 3,7 revisited ?born again?
On Apr 21, 2009, at 10:56 AM, theomann at comcast.net wrote:
> Iver Larsen wrote:
>
> The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus most likely did not
> take place in Greek but in
> Hebrew, since rabbis at that time normally discussed religious
> matters in Hebrew.
> __________________________
>
>
>
> Isn't it more likely that the conversation between Jesus and
> Nicodemus was in Aramaic?
For my part, I think that the whole discussion of whether or not Jesus
actually held this
conversation with Nicodemus and in what language is loaded with
hermeneutical assumptions
that can be argued about but not demonstrated. The text under
discussion gives every
appearance of having been composed in Greek. What traditions may
underlie the text
as we have it lie largely in the realm of speculation.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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