[B-Greek] Translating Hebrews 11:11
Mark Lightman
lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Wed Apr 29 22:45:44 EDT 2009
Tom,
I think the idea that Sarah considered God to be
faithful is only a little problematic and seems to
be answered by the KAI AUTH "even SARAH, of
all people, by faith received the power to conceive..."
Afterall, Genesis also portrays Abraham as less
than perfect in his faith.
KATABOLH SPERMATOS seems to me to
be also only a little problematic. I think Carl
is basically correct. I would not call the
phrase a "mistake in Greek usage" but
just a little imprecise language he and his
readers would probably not even notice.
As if I were to talk about a woman who
had children by several different men
as "spreading her seed all over the
place." I don't think most English
speakers would notice that the
metaphor is technically off a little
bit.
But when I read the sentence, I just
think that taking Abraham as the
subject of ELABEN is much
more problematic. To answer your
original question, I don't think any of
the variants except for AUTNi lead
in this direction, although George
may have a point about the addition of
OUSA.
Mark L
--- On Wed, 4/29/09, Tom Moore <tom at katabiblon.com> wrote:
From: Tom Moore <tom at katabiblon.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating Hebrews 11:11
To: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>, "Daniel Buck" <bucksburg at yahoo.com>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 1:16 PM
Iver,
You say "The t.t. definition in BAGD and BDAG appears to be completely
alien to and irrelevant for the NT and LXX.... When the reference is to
"sperm" in the LXX, it is consistenly rendered KOITH SPERMATOS, never
SPERMATOS alone and never in connection with KATABOLH. (See LEV 15:16, 17, 18,
32, LEV 18:20, LEV 19:20, LEV 22:4, NUM 5:13, WIS 3:16)."
But Metzger says that "the expression DUNAMIN EIS KATABOLHN SPERMATOS
ELABEN is *regularly* used of the male in begetting." (I've posted
Metzger's comments in full at the end.)
In which case, isn't possible that the author of Hebrews couldn't even
imagine it being applied to Sarah (and therefore relevant)?
Even BDAG, though it does say within its discussion of KATABOLH KOSMOU, that
"she received the ability to establish a posterity"..."*may* be
the mng. of Heb 11:11," goes on to devote a whole paragraph to the
technical term, so BDAG seems to me to be very tentative about the first option.
LSJ has "throwing down: hence, sowing, Corp.Herm.9.6; esp. of begetting,
Philol.13, Luc.Am.19, cf. Ep.Hebr.11.11, Arr.Epict.1.13.3"
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph.jsp?l=katabolh&la=greek).
For me, my problem was never with the first part of the verse; I initially
assumed Sarah was the subject and assumed from context that KATABOLHN SPERMATOS
meant to conceive (rather than to found a posterity). Rather, I stumbled over
the last clause EPEI PISTON hHGHSATO TON EPAGGEILAMENON, because I couldn't
reconcile Hebrews' assertion that it was Sarah's faith with the Genesis
account (unless the author did mean Abraham's faith and presumed the subject
shift would be obvious to his audience). I would even characterize Sarah's
reaction after the birth of Isaac in Gn. 21:7 as one of near disbelief.
But if "to throw down seed" is a regular meaning of KATABOLHN
SPERMATOS, such that the author of Hebrews couldn't even imagine it being
applied to Sarah, then suddenly there is no confusion as to whose faith he meant
because there would be no confusion as to who the subject is.
My questions are 1) is the t.t. definition irrelevant despite Metzger's
assertion that it is regulary used? 2) If we understand the expression to apply
to Sarah, is Hebrews' assertion that it was Sarah's faith not itself
problematic?
Regards,
Tom
Metzger on Hebrews 11.11:
"The difficulties of this verse are well known (for example, in Greek the
expression δύναμιν εἰς καταβολὴν σπέρματος
ἔλαβεν is regularly used of the male in begetting, not the female in
conceiving) and have led some scholars (including F. Field, Windisch, Zuntz) to
suggest that καὶ αὐτὴ Σάρρα στεῖρα is an early gloss that
somehow got into the text. Appreciating the lexical difficulty, but unwilling to
emend the text, a majority of the Committee understood the words καὶ
αὐτὴ Σάρρα στεῖρα to be a Hebraic circumstantial clause, thus
allowing Ἀβραάμ (ver. 8) to serve as subject of ἔλαβεν ("by
faith, even though Sarah was barren, he [Abraham] received power to
beget...").
"It is also possible to construe the words AUTH SARRA STEIRA [printed in
uncial script -tm] as a dative of accompaniment (in uncial script iotas
subscript are ordinarily not indicated), so that the sentence runs, "By
faith he [Abraham] also, together with barren Sarah, received power to
beget..."
"A second problem involves στεῖρα, which is absent from several
important witnesses ([omitted -tm]). Although admitting that the word might have
been added as an interpretative gloss in an ancestor of [omitted -tm], a
majority of the Committee regarded it as more likely that the word dropped out
through transcriptional oversight (SARRACTEIRA [printed in uncial -tm]). It was
agreed that ἡ ([omitted -tm]) and οὖσα ([omitted -tm]) are obviously
secondary."
Bruce M. Metzger
A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd Ed., pg. 602.
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating Hebrews 11:11
> Sent: Apr 29 '09 15:57
>
> Sorry, for the final PARABOLH, read KATABOLH, which you would probably do
anyway.
>
> Iver Larsen
> ...
> In fact, when the reference is to "sperm" in the LXX, it is
> > consistenly rendered KOITH SPERMATOS, never SPERMATOS alone and
never in connection with PARABOLH.
> > (See LEV 15:16, 17, 18, 32, LEV 18:20, LEV 19:20, LEV 22:4, NUM
5:13, WIS 3:16).
>
>
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