[B-Greek] John 6:40 - PAS - "ALL" or "ALL THOSE WHO" ?

Matthew Dent dentm42 at yahoo.com
Tue Aug 4 22:01:54 EDT 2009


----- Original Message ----
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
> Cc: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 6:19:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:40 - PAS - "ALL" or "ALL THOSE WHO" ?
> 
> 
> On Aug 4, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Aug 4, 2009, at 1:45 PM, Matthew Dent wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> TOUTO GAR ESTIN
> >> TO QELHMA TOU PATROS MOU INA
> >> PAS O QEWRWN TON UION KAI
> >> PISTEUWN EIS AUTON EXH ZWHN AIWNION
> >>
> >>
> >> Specifically, I'm wondering whether "O QEWRWN ... KAI PISTEUWN EIS
> >> AUTON" in the phrase "INA PAS O QEWRWN TON UION KAI PISTEUWN EIS
> >> AUTON EXH ZWHN AIWNION" creates a bounded set which limits the scope
> >> of the "PAS" or whether it describes the desired state of being of
> >> the "PAS".
> >
> > John 6:40 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
> > πατρός μου, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν
> > υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ
> > ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν
> > ἐγὼ [ἐν] τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.
> >
> > I would go with the notion of "bounded set". However I have some
> > misgivings about using math metaphors for doing analysis of  of
> > natural language since it is easy to fall into a fatal error of
> > assuming that language functions according to some known set of fixed
> > laws that can be worked out in some strictly mechanical fashion.

Elizabeth - 

Your misgivings are both noted and shared... but I needed some sort of metaphor to explain the concept my brain was working in and math seemed the closest one I could come up with on short notice.

> 
> For what it's worth, I think that the substantive participial phrase,  
> PAS hO QEWRWN ... KAI PISTEUWN ... is equivalent to EAN TIS  
> QEWRHi ...KAI PISTEUHi ... or hOSTIS AN QEWRHi ... KAI PISTEUHi ... --  
> a generalized clause. The substantivized participle is easier to fit  
> into the hINA clause, itself a substantive clause perhaps best viewed  
> as appostional to the TOUTO.  It's equivalent to QELEI hO PATHR MOU  
> hINA, EAN TIS QEWRHi ... KAI PISTEUHi, ECHi ZWHN AIWNION. The  
> substantival paraticiple obviates the need for a subjunctive in two  
> successive clauses dependent upon the introductory TOUTO GAR ESTIN TO  
> QELHMA TOU PATROS MOU.
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 

Carl - 

---QUOTE---
> The substantivized participle is easier to fit  
> into the hINA clause, itself a substantive clause perhaps best viewed  
> as appostional to the TOUTO.
---ENDQUOTE---

I concur with the first part (easier to fit - or, put another way, more elegant), but I'm not sold on making it appositional to TOUTO.  

I guess ultimately my question regarding your proposal is, why the injection of the conditional in the equivalence you propose... 

Why not, instead, an equivalence something like:
TOUTO QELEI hO PATHR MOU  hINA PAS QEWRHi ... KAI PAS PISTEUHi KAI PAS ECHi ZWHN AIWNION.

To paraphrase: My Father desires this in order that all would see, believe, and have eternal life.

If the resultant ECHi ZWHN AIWNION is to be understood as dependent upon hO QEWRWN ... KAI PISTEUWN wouldn't it be introduced with OTI (to express the content of the desire) rather than hINA (expressing the result of the desiring)?  Especially since, at least according to LSJ, hINA never appears with
AN? 
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2350493) 
Rather, hINA seems to introduce a FINAL CLAUSE (GOODWIN & GULICK,
1930, par. 1371, 1372) or even a PURE FINAL CLAUSE (par. 1374) (note
also, par. 1376, "The adverb AN (KE) is sometimes joined with WS, OPWS,
and OFRA (never with hINA) before the subjunctive in final clauses.")

I hope I'm not coming across as just being difficult... I just want to know the WHY to the answer and WHY NOT other alternatives - or at least whether or not my alternative is defensible from the standpoint of the grammar involved.

Thanks in advance!

Matt Dent



      



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