[B-Greek] John 6:40 - PAS - "ALL" or "ALL THOSE WHO" ?

Margaret Sim margaret_sim at sil.org
Wed Aug 5 07:42:03 EDT 2009


Folks,
I suggest that you are ignoring the fact that the hINA clause has a 
subjunctive verb. Yes, it explicates the TOUTO but could it not rather be 
what John reports Jesus as saying about the father's will, namely: Everyone 
who sees the son and believes in him SHOULD have eternal life. This does not 
mean that it is indefinite but that it is anticipated, a 'desirable state of 
affairs' rather than a 'state of affairs' which would have been introduced 
by a hOTI clause.

This isn't about PAS, as the discussion began, but I couldn't resist 
commenting!!

Yours,
Margaret Sim
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: "Matthew Dent" <dentm42 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:40 - PAS - "ALL" or "ALL THOSE WHO" ?


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Matthew Dent" <dentm42 at yahoo.com>
> To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Cc: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: 5. august 2009 04:01
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:40 - PAS - "ALL" or "ALL THOSE WHO" ?
>
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> To: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
>>> Cc: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 6:19:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:40 - PAS - "ALL" or "ALL THOSE WHO" ?
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> TOUTO GAR ESTIN
>>> >> TO QELHMA TOU PATROS MOU INA
>>> >> PAS O QEWRWN TON UION KAI
>>> >> PISTEUWN EIS AUTON EXH ZWHN AIWNION
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Specifically, I'm wondering whether "O QEWRWN ... KAI PISTEUWN EIS
>>> >> AUTON" in the phrase "INA PAS O QEWRWN TON UION KAI PISTEUWN EIS
>>> >> AUTON EXH ZWHN AIWNION" creates a bounded set which limits the scope
>>> >> of the "PAS" or whether it describes the desired state of being of
>>> >> the "PAS".
>>> >
>>> > John 6:40 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ
>>> > πατρός μου, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν
>>> > υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ
>>> > ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν
>>> > ἐγὼ [ἐν] τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.
> <snip>
> [CC:]
>>> For what it's worth, I think that the substantive participial phrase,
>>> PAS hO QEWRWN ... KAI PISTEUWN ... is equivalent to EAN TIS
>>> QEWRHi ...KAI PISTEUHi ... or hOSTIS AN QEWRHi ... KAI PISTEUHi ... --
>>> a generalized clause. The substantivized participle is easier to fit
>>> into the hINA clause, itself a substantive clause perhaps best viewed
>>> as appostional to the TOUTO.  It's equivalent to QELEI hO PATHR MOU
>>> hINA, EAN TIS QEWRHi ... KAI PISTEUHi, ECHi ZWHN AIWNION. The
>>> substantival paraticiple obviates the need for a subjunctive in two
>>> successive clauses dependent upon the introductory TOUTO GAR ESTIN TO
>>> QELHMA TOU PATROS MOU.
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>
>>
>> Carl -
>>
>> ---QUOTE---
>>> The substantivized participle is easier to fit
>>> into the hINA clause, itself a substantive clause perhaps best viewed
>>> as appostional to the TOUTO.
>> ---ENDQUOTE---
>>
>> I concur with the first part (easier to fit - or, put another way, more
>> elegant), but I'm not sold on making it appositional to TOUTO.
>>
>
> IL: Once you get more used to John's style of writing, I think you will be
> convinced. His use of hOUTOS is interesting and somewhat special to him 
> among
> the NT writers.
> You find the same initial TOUTO in v. 39:
> τοῦτο δέ ἐστιν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πέμψαντός με, ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μὴ 
> ἀπολέσω ἐξ
> αὐτοῦ
> TOUTO DE ESTIN TO QELHMA TOU PEMYANTOS ME, hINA PAN hO\ DEDWKEN MPI MH 
> APOLESW
> EX AUTOU
>
> What the demonstrative TOUTO does here is to anticipate and put a 
> spotlight on
> the hINA clause. What is God's will? It is this, namely that every 
> thing(person)
> that he has given to me, I won't lose any of it/them. Of course, God's 
> will does
> not contain only one thing, so in v. 40 another part of God's will is
> highlighted by another anticipatory TOUTO. Again the hINA clause is the
> highlighted content of God's will.
>
>> I guess ultimately my question regarding your proposal is, why the 
>> injection
>> of the conditional in the equivalence you propose...
>>
>> Why not, instead, an equivalence something like:
>> TOUTO QELEI hO PATHR MOU  hINA PAS QEWRHi ... KAI PAS PISTEUHi KAI PAS 
>> ECHi
>> ZWHN AIWNION.
>>
>> To paraphrase: My Father desires this in order that all would see, 
>> believe,
>> and have eternal life.
>
> As Carl has said the construction implies a condition and consequence. It 
> is a
> common expression with or without PAS in John, even in the immediate 
> context,
> e.g.
> v. 36 ὁ ἐρχόμενος πρὸς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ hO ERCOMENOS PROS EME OU MH 
> PEINASHi
> The one who comes to me shall not hunger = if anyone comes to me, he shall 
> not
> hunger
>
> ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ διψήσει hO PISTEUWN EIS EME OU MH DIYHSEI
> the one who believes in me shall not thirst = if anyone believes in me, he 
> shall
> not thirst
>
> Whether a PAS is there or not doesn't significantly alter the sense, it 
> only
> gives a bit of emphasis and explicitness to what is implicit anyway:
> v. 40b πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον
> PAS hO QEWRWN TON hUION KAI PISTEUWN EIS AUTON ECHi ZWHN AIWNION
> Every he/she who contemplates the son and believes in him has eternal life
>
> All of these hO's are not the relative pronoun but the article with an 
> implicit
> relative, and that is why we translate an articular participle in English 
> with a
> relative pronoun after the personal pronoun - (every) he who...
>
>>
>> If the resultant ECHi ZWHN AIWNION is to be understood as dependent upon 
>> hO
>> QEWRWN ... KAI PISTEUWN wouldn't it be introduced with OTI (to express 
>> the
>> content of the desire) rather than hINA (expressing the result of the
>> desiring)?  Especially since, at least according to LSJ, hINA never 
>> appears
>> with
>> AN?
>> (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2350493)
>> Rather, hINA seems to introduce a FINAL CLAUSE (GOODWIN & GULICK,
>> 1930, par. 1371, 1372) or even a PURE FINAL CLAUSE (par. 1374) (note
>> also, par. 1376, "The adverb AN (KE) is sometimes joined with WS, OPWS,
>> and OFRA (never with hINA) before the subjunctive in final clauses.")
>
> No, as I said earlier, the hINA introduces the clause anticipated by 
> TOUTO. This
> is quite common.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
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