[B-Greek] John 6:40 - PAS - "ALL" or "ALL THOSE WHO" ?
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Aug 6 09:13:49 EDT 2009
On Aug 6, 2009, at 8:56 AM, John Sanders wrote:
> I apologize once more. I believe that I am not making myself very
> clear. I
> do not wish to repeat myself, for that will not help. So I hope
> that this
> may make myself more understandable.
>
> I do not question your understanding of this particular text, I also
> think
> that is correct. Let me translate the text as I think it would read:
>
> TOUTO GAR ESTIN TO QELHMA TOU PATROS MOU hINA PAS O QEWRWN TON UION
> KAI
> PISTEUWN EIS AUTON EXHi ZWHN AIWNION KAI ANASTHSW AUTON EGW EN TH
> ESXATHi
> HMERAi.
>
> For this is the wish of my Father, that every one discovering the
> son and
> believing in Him will have life eternal and I shall raise him on the
> last
> day.
>
> Two notes: the retaining of a classical for (EXHi) does not
> necessarily
> imply retaining the classical meaning. Given this text, I suspect the
> "tentativeness" of the subjunctive has been replaced with the simple
> "future". Likewise, I suspect the future ANASTHSW is expressed with
> certitude. So, given that idiosyncracy of mine, we should be in
> agreement,
> I would think.
The subjunctive of ECHi is not tentative; it depends upon the
introductory hINA. "The will of my Father" = "My father wants." WHAT
my Father wants is stated in the hINA clause: "My Father wants
everyone who sees and believes the Son to have everlasting life." The
hINA clause sets forth exactly what it is that "My Father wants."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
> What is the question, then? As I understand it, as I perceive the
> question,
> it is asking who is included in the set? Does the set include
> everyone and
> this is the process that each one will go through to receive life
> eternal
> and be raised on the last day, or is this actually the definition of
> the set
> and only they who comply with this definition will receive life
> eternal and
> be raised on the last day?
>
> The text itself is clear, but the text does not tell us which of
> these two
> choices comprise the set of those who will receive life eternal and be
> raised on the last day. Either the set will have to comply with the
> text
> because it is the definition of the set; or it gives the process for
> which the set is to comply. In either case you can come to this
> text and
> read it and not be discomforted. That is why I say that the text is
> insufficient to answer this question and you will need further
> information.
>
> John Sanders
> Suzhou, China
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
> wrote:
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sanders" <
>> john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com>
>> To: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: 6. august 2009 08:27
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:40 - PAS - "ALL" or "ALL THOSE WHO" ?
>>
>>
>> I think that the answers given are accurate as they pertain to the
>> Greek,
>>> but they do not answer the question as put forth:
>>>
>>> "The difference being in (1) it is the desire of the father that
>>> those who
>>> are in a condition of perceiving and believing would have eternal
>>> life.
>>> Whereas in (2) it is the desire of the father that all would be in a
>>> condition of perceiving and believing and that all would have
>>> eternal
>>> life."
>>>
>>
>> Well, I thought the arguments from grammar and similar
>> constructions were
>> clear enough to indicate that (1) is the intended sense, and (2)
>> would have
>> to be expressed in a different way with a subjunctive on the
>> perceiving.
>> Notice also how in English you/Matthew had to add a second "would"
>> in (2)
>> which is not reflected in the Greek text. Matthew also added an
>> "add" after
>> "believing" which is not in the text. You can say that the desire
>> of the
>> father is that all might have eternal life, but the condition is
>> clear in
>> that only (all) those who perceive that Jesus is the "son of God" and
>> believes in him will actually obtain that life.
>>
>> Iver Larsen
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