[B-Greek] Eph 1:9: Going beyond grammar?

John Sanders john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com
Fri Aug 14 09:19:29 EDT 2009


Although in general I am in agreement with Iver and Dr. Conrad, I wish to
add some comments.

When I read Ken's questions, I formulated my own:  Did Paul deliberately
choose this construction or is it a reflection of habitual usage by Paul.  I
do not think we will have sufficient data to come to any meaningful
knowledge.

But, if it is deliberate, then why?  From the available data it appears to
be a Pauline usage rather than common usage.  Is it not possible that this
is a conflation of both the locative and instrumentive?  At least that is
how I always read it, both in the English and the Greek.  Manner is implied,
but the location is emphasized.

John Sanders
Suzhou, China

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:

> I very much appreciate Iver's sensible remarks on the interpretation
> of the Pauline phase, EN CRISTWi and its pronominal equivalents --
> even as I note the near deafening silence in the inner sanctum of B-
> Greek with respect to a Greek phrase known to all readers of the GNT
> and evidently taken for granted by almost all as self-understood. The
> issue clearly has long since been resolved in the minds of most and
> lacks the inherent interest of questions of ancient Greek linguistic
> pedagogy.
>
> Ken Litwak's reply to George and myself is somewhat petulant; we
> haven't answered his question, which may possibly be, as I suggested,
> a matter of how to translate these phrases, but which remains, Ken
> seems to think, a question of pinpointing the usage on our maps of
> Biblical Greek grammar or syntax: "What in the text would dictate or
> at least suggest to an original hearer that EN AUTWi has some specific
> semantic significance, let alone some theological significance?That is
> what I'm really asking.  "In relationship with" or the like might well
> be what Paul means at times
> but what would indicate this to a Greek speaker who doubtless could
> suggest many other ways in which to take such a prhase?"
>
> For my part, I think that Paul's usage is intelligible, even if
> there's no more suitable descriptive pigeon-hole for it than "EN +
> dative of the person." I'll have a word further on that below in
> conjunction with citation of the "authorities" that seem pretty
> respectable (to me, at least). But the question of greater interest to
> me is how we should English these phrases. I suspect that the phrase,
> "In Christ," is so deeply rooted in the speech of the English-speaking
> faithful that it cannot be dislodged sooner than the U.S. adopts the
> metric system, despite the fact that this usage of the preposition
> "in" is unnatural in English.
>
> When I was young(er) and still taught Greek, I used to introduce the
> dative case to students by noting the fusion into one morphological
> pattern of what were originally three different IE cases, Locative,
> Instrumental-Comitative, and True Dative, and I suggested that when a
> dative form was encountered and required Englishing, one should first
> attempt to classify it in one of those three original IE cases, and
> use the English prepositions: "in" or "at" for a Locative Dative,
> "with" for an Instrumental-Comitative Dative, and "to" or "for" for a
> True Dative. In terms of that "rule of first resort," I would opt for
> "with Christ" as English for EN CRISTWi. Too vague? No more so than
> "in Christ." But more natural English than "in Christ."
>
> Regarding grammatical-syntactic mapping, what we find in our standard
> references will not satisfy Ken, but it will at least validate his
> sense of dissatisfaction with the answers that he has found in his own
> copious research into the matter.
>
> A.T. Robertson discusses it in his big grammar, pp. 587-8:
> "6. ‘In the Case of,’ ‘in the Person of’ or simply ‘in.’  A
> frequent use is where a single case is selected as a specimen or
> striking illustration. Here the resultant notion is ‘in the case
> of,’which does not differ greatly from the metaphorical use of with
> soul, mind, etc. "
>
> BDF  offers the "classic" note on this usage, that it "utterly defies
> definite interpretation"
> §219., p. 118:
> "Instrumental ἐν.  The use of ἐν owes its extension especially to
> the imitation of Hebrew constructions with בְּ. It is used for the
> simple instr. (§195), but ...
> " The phrase ἐν Χριστῷ (κυρίῳ), which is copiously
> appended by Paul to the most varied concepts, utterly defies definite
> interpretation; cf. Deissmann, Die nt. Formel ‘in Christo Jesu’,
> Marburg, 1892; Oepke, TW ii 534 n.; Bauer s.v. ἐν i 5d."
>
> Wallace, p. 372:
> "Ἐν is the workhorse of prepositions in the NT, occurring more
> frequently and in more varied situations than any other. It overlaps
> with the simple dative uses to a great extent, but not entirely. The
> following categories are for the most part painted with broad
> strokes. ...
> "3.  Association (often close personal relationship): with"
> p. 376:
> "One group of significant passages involves the phrase ἐν
> Χριστῷ, an expression found almost solely in the Pauline corpus.
> The student is encouraged to consult standard lexical and biblico-
> theological sources for a treatment of this phrase.(58)
> n. 58 "BDF,118 (§219) despair of a treatment of the phrase because it
> “is copiously appended by Paul to the most varied concepts” and
> hence “utterly defies definite interpretation. . . .” Cf. BAGD,
> s.v. ἐν, I.5.d. (259-60) (and the bibliography listed there). See
> also Oepke’s essay in TDNT 2.541-2; C. F. D. Moule, Origin of
> Christology (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1977) 54-69 (esp.
> 54-62); Harris, “Prepositions and Theology,” 3.1192-93 (for a
> succinct summary)."
>
> On Aug 14, 2009, at 5:05 AM, Iver Larsen wrote:
>
> > Dear Ken,
> >
> > As a translator, this is the kind of topic that I have to wrestle
> > with.
> >
> > I agree with both you and Carl that the phrase "in Christ" in
> > English is pretty
> > meaningless and often misleading, because the use of "in" in English
> > is so much
> > more restricted than the use of EN in Koine Greek.
> >
> > One of the problems we have to deal with is the holy tradition of
> > concordant
> > Bible translation. This unhelpful tradition has conditioned us to
> > think that one
> > ought to use the same phrase in translation when the same phrase
> > occurs in the
> > original Greek. I don't think it helps to substitute "in Christ"
> > with "in
> > relationship to Christ" or "in union with Christ" (a favorite of the
> > GNB),
> > because we simply cannot use the same phrase all the time in every
> > context,
> > because the meaning of the phrase is not the same.
> >
> > So, when you talk about going beyond the grammar, I suppose you mean
> > going
> > beyond the word and phrase level to the higher levels of sentence
> > and paragraph.
> > In a different way, this is repeating what George said: Context,
> > context,
> > context. The only way to properly understand a phrase like EN AUTWi/
> > CRISTWi is
> > NOT to translate it by "in (union with) Christ" and then try to see
> > if that
> > might fit the context. Rather, look at the context to see what
> > meaning fits.
> > Quite often the EN does indicate means as you suggested, and in the
> > case of Eph
> > 1:9, that seems to fit the context best. God decided beforehand that
> > he would
> > accomplish his plan of salvation by means of what Christ was to do.
> > So, in this
> > case, I am reasonably satisfied with GNB: "God did what he had
> > purposed, and
> > made known to us the secret plan he had already decided to complete
> > by means of
> > Christ." God's Word also translates it well: "He had decided to do
> > this through
> > Christ."
> >
> > However, you also mentioned Col 2:11 where NIV says: "In him you
> > were also
> > circumcised.." That does not communicate the intended meaning at
> > all, and here I
> > do not like the GNB: "In union with Christ you were circumcised."
> > Here, too, I
> > think it goes towards "by means of Christ", but "Christ" is often
> > used as a
> > metonym, and what this metonym refers to, can only be understood
> > from context.
> > Sometimes it is by means of what Christ has done, other times it is
> > by means of
> > what God has done through Christ, and other times it is by means of
> > what we have
> > done in response to what Christ did. I would say that this is the
> > intended sense
> > here. When we came to believe in Christ, we were spiritually
> > circumcised "in the
> > heart". So, in this case, something like the NLT would be my choice:
> > "When you
> > came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical
> > procedure. Christ
> > performed a spiritual circumcision..." In our Danish version we
> > said: "Through
> > your faith in Christ..."
> >
> > Iver Larsen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kenneth Litwak" <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>
> > To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; "George F Somsel"
> > <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> > Sent: 14. august 2009 06:46
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Eph 1:9: Going beyond grammar?
> >
> >
> >> I appreciate the comments from George and Carl.  Yes, Carl, I
> >> suppose that my
> >> concern is partly a translation issue.  Perhaps though I should
> >> state it
> >> differently, because I don't really find the BDAG contents to have
> >> warrant (in
> >> that it does not show why grammatically or syntactically some
> >> specific sense is
> >> required/appropriate).  So, phrased differently, EN hAUTWk or EN
> >> XRISTOS or EN
> >> hWi by themselves are vague.  So a Greek speaker simply by hearing
> >> EN hAUTWi in
> >> a letter from Paul is not going to know what that prepositional
> >> phrase actually
> >> signifies, even though he/she would readily recognize EN (and
> >> doubtless
> >> understand its range of meaning far better than I ever will) and
> >> AUTWk.  What
> >> in the text would dictate or at least suggest to an original hearer
> >> that EN
> >> AUTWk has some specific semantic significance, let alone some
> >> theological
> >> significance?That is what I'm really asking.  "In relationship
> >> with" or the
> >> like might well be what Paul means at times
> >> but what would indicate this to a Greek speaker who doubtless could
> >> suggest
> >> many other ways in which to take such a prhase?  Thanks.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
> >> --- On Thu, 8/13/09, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Eph 1:9:  Going beyond grammar?
> >>> To: "Kenneth Litwak" <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>, b-
> >>> greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 3:29 AM
> >>> γνωρίσας ἡμῖν τὸ
> >>> μυστήριον τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ,
> >>> κατὰ τὴν εὐδοκίαν αὐτοῦ ἣν
> >>> προέθετο ἐν αὐτῷ
> >>> GNWRISAS hHMIN TO MUSTHRION TOU QELHMATOS AUTOU KATA THN
> >>> EUDOKIAN AUTOU hHN PROEQETO EN AUTWi
> >>>
> >>> ⓒesp.in Paul.or Joh.usage, to designate a close personal
> >>> relation in which the referent of the ἐν-term is viewed
> >>> as the controlling influence: under the control of, under
> >>> the influence of, in close association with (cp.ἐν τῷ
> >>> Δαυιδ εἰμί2 Km 19:44): of Christ εἶναι,
> >>> μένειν ἐν τῷ πατρί (ἐν τῷ θεῷ) J
> >>> 10:38; 14:10f(difft.CGordon, ‘In’ of Predication or
> >>> Equivalence: JBL100, ’81, 612f); and of Christians 1J
> >>> 3:24; 4:13,15f; beor abide in ChristJ 14:20; 15:4f;
> >>> μένειν ἐν τῷ υἱῷ καὶ ἐν τῷ
> >>> πατρί1J 2:24.ἔργα ἐν θεῷ
> >>> εἰργασμέναdone in communion with GodJ 3:21(but s.
> >>> 1e above).—In Paul the relation of the individual to
> >>> Christ is very oft.expressed by such phrases as ἐν
> >>> Χριστῷ, ἐν κυρίῳetc., also vice versa
> >>> (FNeugebauer, NTS4, ’57/58, 124–[Page 328] 38;
> >>> AWedderburn, JSNT25, ’85, 83–97) ἐν ἐμοὶ
> >>> ΧριστόςGal 2:20,but
> >>> here in the sense of a above.—See, e.g., Dssm., D. ntl.
> >>> Formel ‘in Christo Jesu’ 1892; EWeber, D. Formel ‘in
> >>> Chr. Jesu’ u. d. paul. Christusmystik: NKZ31, 1920, 213ff;
> >>> LBrun, Zur Formel ‘in Chr. Jesus’ im Phil: Symbolae
> >>> Arctoae 1, 1922, 19–37; MHansen, Omkring Paulus-Formeln
> >>> ‘i Kristus’: TK 4/10, 1929, 135–59; HBöhlig,
> >>> ʼΕνκυρίῳ: GHeinrici Festschr.1914, 170–75;
> >>> OSchmitz, D. Christusgemeinschaft d. Pls2’56;
> >>> AWikenhauser, D. Christusmystik d. Pls2’56; KMittring,
> >>> Heilswirklichkeit b. Pls; Beitrag z. Verständnis der unio
> >>> cum Christo in d. Plsbriefen 1929; ASchweitzer, D. Mystik d.
> >>> Ap. Pls 1930 (Eng. tr., WMontgomery, The Myst. of Paul the
> >>> Ap., ’31); WSchmauch, In Christus ’35; BEaston, Pastoral
> >>> Ep.’47, 210f; FBüchsel, ‘In Chr.’ b. Pls: ZNW42,
> >>> ’49, 141–58. Also HKorn, D. Nachwirkungen d.
> >>> Christusmystik d. Pls in den Apost. Vätern, diss.Berlin
> >>> 1928; EAndrews, Interpretation 6, ’52, 162–77;
> >>> H-LParisius, ZNW49, ’58, 285–88 (10 ‘forensic’
> >>> passages); JAllan, NTS5, ’58/59, 54–62 (Eph), ibid.10,
> >>> ’63, 115–21 (pastorals); FNeugebauer, In Christus, etc.
> >>> ’61; MDahl, The Resurrection of the Body (1 Cor 15) ’62,
> >>> 110–13.—Paul has the most varied expressions for this
> >>> new life-principle: life in Christ Ro 6:11,23; love in
> >>> Christ 8:39; grace, which is given in Christ 1 Cor 1:4;
> >>> freedom in Chr. Gal 2:4; blessing in Chr. 3:14; unity in
> >>> Chr. vs. 28.στήκειν ἐν κυρίῳstand firm in
> >>> the LordPhil 4:1; εὑρεθῆναι ἐν Χ. be found in
> >>> Christ3:9; εἶναι ἐν Χ. 1 Cor 1:30; οἱ ἐν Χ.
> >>> Ro 8:1.—1 Pt 5:14; κοιμᾶσθαι ἐν Χ.,
> >>> ἀποθνῄσκειν ἐν κυρίῳ1 Cor 15:18.—Rv
> >>> 14:13; ζῳοποιεῖσθαι1 Cor 15:22.—The formula
> >>> is esp.common w. verbs that denote a conviction, hope, etc.
> >>> πεποιθέναιGal 5:10; Phil 1:14; 2 Th
> >>> 3:4.παρρησίαν ἔχεινPhlm
> >>> 8.πέπεισμαιRo 14:14.ἐλπίζεινPhil
> >>> 2:19.καύχησιν ἔχεινRo 15:17; 1 Cor 15:31.τὸ
> >>> αὐτὸ φρονεῖνPhil 4:2.ὑπακούεινEph
> >>> 6:1.λαλεῖν2 Cor 2:17; 12:19.ἀλήθειαν
> >>> λέγεινRo 9:1.λέγειν καὶ
> >>> μαρτύρεσθαιEph 4:17.But also apart fr.such verbs,
> >>> in numerous pass.it is used w. verbs and nouns of the most
> >>> varied sort, often without special emphasis, to indicate the
> >>> scope within which someth.takes place or has taken place, or
> >>> to designate someth.as being in close assoc. w. Christ, and
> >>> can be rendered, variously, in connection with, in intimate
> >>> association with, keeping in mindἁγιάζεσθαι1 Cor
> >>> 1:2,or ἅγιος ἐν Χ. Phil 1:1; ἀσπάζεσθαί
> >>> τινα1 Cor 16:19.δικαιοῦσθαιGal
> >>> 2:17.κοπιᾶνRo 16:12.παρακαλεῖν1 Th
> >>> 4:1.προσδέχεσθαί τιναRo 16:2; Phil
> >>> 2:29.χαίρειν3:1; 4:4,10.γαμηθῆναι ἐν
> >>> κυρίῳmarry in the Lord=marry a Christian 1 Cor
> >>> 7:39.προϊστάμενοι ὑμῶν ἐν
> >>> κυρίῳyour Christian leaders (in the church)1 Th
> >>> 5:12(but s. προΐστημι1 and
> >>> 2).—εὐάρεστοςCol 3:20.νήπιος1 Cor
> >>> 3:1.φρόνιμος4:10.παιδαγωγοίvs.
> >>> 15.ὁδοίvs. 17.Hence used in periphrasis for
> >>> ‘Christian’ οἱ ὄντες ἐν κυρίῳRo 16:11;
> >>> ἄνθρωπος ἐν Χ. 2 Cor 12:2; αἱ
> >>> ἐκκλησίαι αἱ ἐν Χ. Gal 1:22; 1 Th 2:14;
> >>> νεκροὶ ἐν Χ. 4:16; ἐκλεκτόςRo
> >>> 16:13.δόκιμοςvs. 10.δέσμιοςEph
> >>> 4:1.πιστὸς διάκονος6:21; ἐν Χ.
> >>> γεννᾶν τιναbecome someone’s parent in the
> >>> Christian life1 Cor 4:15.τὸ ἔργον μου
> >>> ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἐν κυρίῳ9:1.—The use of
> >>> ἐν πνεύματιas a formulaic expression is sim.:
> >>> ἐν πν. εἶναιbe under the impulsion of the
> >>> spirit,i.e.the new self, as opposed to ἐν
> >>> σαρκίunder the domination of the old selfRo 8:9;
> >>> cp.ἐν νόμῳ2:12.λαλεῖνspeak under divine
> >>> inspiration1 Cor 12:3.ἐγενόμην ἐν
> >>> πνεύματιI was in a state of inspirationRv 1:10; 4:2;
> >>> opp.ἐν ἑαυτῷ γενόμενοςcame to himselfAc
> >>> 12:11(cp.X., An. 1, 5, 17 et al.).—The expr.ἐν πν.
> >>> εἶναιis also used to express the idea that someone is
> >>> under the special infl.of a good or even an undesirable
> >>> spirit: Mt 22:43; Mk 12:36; Lk 2:27; 1 Cor 12:3; Rv 17:3;
> >>> 21:10.ἄνθρωπος ἐν πν. ἀκαθάρτῳ
> >>> (ὤν) Mk 1:23(s. GBjörck, ConNeot7, ’42,
> >>> 1–3).—ἐν τῷ πονηρῷ κεῖσθαιbe in the
> >>> power of the evil one1J 5:19.οἱ ἐν νόμῳthose who
> >>> are subject to the lawRo 3:19.ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ
> >>> ἀποθνῄσκεινdie because of a connectionw.Adam1
> >>> Cor 15:22.—On the formula ἐν ὀνόματι
> >>> (Χριστοῦ) s. ὄνομα1, esp.dγג. The OTis the
> >>> source of the
> >>> expr.ὀμνύναι ἔν τινιswear by someoneor
> >>> someth.(oft.LXX) Mt 5:34ff; 23:16,18ff; Rv 10:6;
> >>> παραγγέλλομέν σοι ἐν ἸησοῦAc
> >>> 19:14v.l.The usage in ὁμολογεῖν ἔν
> >>> τινιacknowledge someoneMt 10:32; Lk 12:8(s.
> >>> ὁμολογέω4b) is Aramaic.
> >>>
> >>> Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A
> >>> Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early
> >>> Christian literature. (3rd ed.) (s.v. ἐν). Chicago:
> >>> University of Chicago Press.
> >>>
> >>> george
> >>> gfsomsel
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Kenneth Litwak <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>
> >>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:05:55 PM
> >>> Subject: [B-Greek] Eph 1:9: Going beyond grammar?
> >>>
> >>> Eph 1:9 reads in part
> >>> KATA THN EUDOKIAN AUTOU HN PROEQETO EN AUTWi
> >>>
> >>> This clause is one of the many examples in Paul of EN +
> >>> some word in teh Dative, usually AUTWi. I notice that many
> >>> translations render virtually all such constructions as "in
> >>> him," e.g., the NASB. That is possible and unless we are
> >>> prepared to render virtually all such instances by a dative
> >>> of means, which could be appropriate some of the time, I am
> >>> wondering if there's something beyond the simple
> >>> identification of such a construction as, say, a locative
> >>> use of the dative. I chose this example not quite at
> >>> random but close. What I'm interested in is there
> >>> something beyond the simple identification of the syntax
> >>> here that might tell us what Paul actually means. How do
> >>> you purpose something in someone?
> >>>
> >>> Col 2:11 provides a similar example EN (W you were
> >>> circumcised. What does the dative signify beyond location
> >>> and what could Paul possibly mean by saying that an event
> >>> happened within some other individual?
> >>>
> >>> That is, after we've translated such phrases, I'm hoping
> >>> there was something more that would have clued the original
> >>> audience into what this construction actually signifried,
> >>> which is a different question from how it should be
> >>> translated.
> >>>
> >>> I am assuming of course that the small prepositional
> >>> phrases and the like, at least in the epistles, have
> >>> significance, even if meaning is really established at
> >>> higher level of disocurse.
> >>>
> >>> Ken Litwak
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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>
> ---
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-- 
John Sanders
Suzhou, China



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