[B-Greek] Eph 1:9: Going beyond grammar?

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Aug 14 23:11:49 EDT 2009


I think you miss the obvious fact that it is not only in modern culture that it would be senseless to speak of someone as being locatively inside another so context DOES tell you that it cannot be locative (BDAG #1).  Similarly, state or condition (BDAG #2) makes no sense then or now.  Extension toward a goal (BDAG #3) is likewise senseless under most circumstances.  Means or instrument (BDAG #5) might be possible depending upon context.  Agency (BDAG #6) would also be possible depending on context.  Circumstance or condition (BDAG #7) is not meaningful.  I have problems with BDAG #8 being a distinct category, but think that it could be subsumed under other uses.  Reason or cause (BDAG #9 might be appropriate based on context.  Period of time (BDAG #10) would not be meaningful.  Manner (adverbial usage) (BDAG #11) would not be suitable in relation to being EN a person.  Substance (BDAG #12) would hardly be suitable when speaking of being
 EN a person.  

That leaves as most likely the one which I previously mentioned in another post and have reserved until now -- BDAG #4, association.  

We make such determinations constantly in modern languages.  If I use the word "bear", one easily determines from the context what its meaning might be.  Is it an animal?  Does it reference carrying something?  Does it refer to moving in a particular direction?  If I say, "Bear to the left at the fork in the road", surely no one would think I referred to an animal.  Would they think I meant to carry something to the left?  Possibly, depending on the circumstances, but the most likely meaning would be in the context of giving someone directions so they would understand that they were to follow the left branch at the fork in the road.  To say that neither the grammer nor the context is of any help in the matter of what the meaning might be is to virtually state that one can post the various options on the wall and stand back to throw darts (blindfolded) to choose a meaning.  I do not accept that.
 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 



----- Original Message ----
From: John Sanders <john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com>
To: Barry H. <nebarry at verizon.net>
Cc: Kenneth Litwak <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 7:15:02 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Eph 1:9: Going beyond grammar?

Dr. Hofstetter,

We are in agreement.  We do not know unless something of this occurs whether
it was deliberate, customary, or error.  For instance, my use of the simple
past was deliberate, my dropping of the question mark was both customary and
error.  But the reader, or hearer, does have the option of choosing.
Then if I can answer Ken's original question, keeping in mind how I
reformulated his question, then I would say no, the grammar will not be able
to tell you which way to go.  I will even go further, context will not be
able to help you in this matter.  The reader must decide for himself
(herself).  Is it locative? Is it instrumentive?  Is it a combination of
instrumentive placed in a specific location?  Just choose.

The Greek is pretty simple, we can read it and understand it in some fashion
that we will be comfortable with.  Unfortunately, I think many are not able
to read the Greek as Greek and understand the Greek through a specific form
of translation.  Now an editorial decision quite often must be made.  That
decision causes problems.  I enjoy reading Iver's take on these issues, but
I retain the right to disagree, which I do sometimes (perhaps often). Here I
side with Elizabeth.

John Sanders
Suzhou, China
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Barry H. <nebarry at verizon.net> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sanders" <
> john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com>
> To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Cc: "Kenneth Litwak" <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 9:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Eph 1:9: Going beyond grammar?
>
>
>  When I read Ken's questions, I formulated my own:  Did Paul deliberately
>> choose this construction or is it a reflection of habitual usage by Paul.
>> I
>> do not think we will have sufficient data to come to any meaningful
>> knowledge.
>>
>
> Look at what you have written above.  Your omission of the question mark at
> the end of the sentence -- was that a deliberate choice, a customary usage,
> or an error?  What difference does it make to the intended meaning of the
> text you have written?  What about your use of the simple past tense?  You
> could just as easily have used the progressive when you wrote the
> circumstantial clause, "When I was reading Ken's questions..."
>
> When the author encodes his message, he is thinking about the best way to
> communicate what he wants to say.  The form this takes is a dynamic
> interaction between context, the audience (real or imagined) and the
> speaker.  In Paul's case, I doubt that he was thinking much about any
> striking rhetorical or literary phrasing, unlike someone who is making
> artistic choices, such as a poet or tragedian.  He is simply seeking to
> communicate his point, and much of what he writes, perhaps all, results
> intuitively, much the way we write and communicate.
>
> N.E. Barry Hofstetter
> Adjunct Faculty, Classics @ Montclair State University
> http://www.montclair.edu/
> Classics & Bible Instructor @ The American Academy
> http://theamericanacademy.net
>
> http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
>
>


-- 
John Sanders
Suzhou, China
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