[B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 01:05:21 EST 2009
He basically says: "A Cretan said 'Cretans are always liars' ", but if Cretans are always liars, was he telling the truth that Cretans are always liars? Sounds more philosophical than I suspect the writer would have been. I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: "yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net" <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
To: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, December 8, 2009 10:52:14 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
Why would you say that?
Yancy Smith, PhD
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Y.W.Smith at tcu.edu
yancy at wbtc.com
5636 Wedgworth Road
Fort Worth, TX 76133
817-361-7565
On Dec 8, 2009, at 9:53 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
> I think this is a bit too philosophical for the nature of the writing.
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Tue, December 8, 2009 8:33:55 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
>
> First, I have copied Tit 1:12-13 with some phrase and line breaks added:
>
> Titus
> (1:12) EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN, IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS,
>
> <KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI,
> KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.>
>
> (1:13a) hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS.
>
> (1:13b) DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS hINA hUGIAINWSIN EN TH PISTEI.
>
> I came across this text discussed in a wonderful book I'm lately reading:
>
> Anthony Thiselton, _ Interpreting God and the Postmodern Self _ (1995 Eerdmans)
>
> His comment made me think.
>
> My question is:
>
> v. 13a is usually taken as
> "There is a truth in such testimonial of his." "This testimony is true."
>
> Is it possible (in terms of grammar and syntax) to take v. 13a as
> something of interrogative?
>
> "Is there a truth in such testimonial of his?"
>
> I guess, I must be trying to take it kind of a rhetoric argument
> "Isn't there a truth ~?"
>
> Oun Kwon.
>
> P.S. Thiselton writes on this text (pp. 37-38]:
> ... Almost every commentator tries to find some 'excuse' for a
> judgmental steretypification of Cretans as liars. Some argue that
> 'This testimony is true' reflects either the opinion of the writer [of
> the Epistle] based on experience, or a consensus behind such
> stereotypification in the ancient world. But the author can hardly
> fail to have been aware that in Greek logic the paradox of the liar
> posed a familiar dilemma. If a habitual liar says, 'Everything that I
> say is a lie', is this true or false? If we add, 'this testimony is
> true', are we corroborating its truth or its falsity?
> All this shows, as the writer well knows, that the paradox is
> neither true nor false but self-defeating. But self-defeating
> paradoxes perform other functions at a different level, whether in
> Greek philosophy or in modern mathematical logic. They invite us to
> view the 'claim' from another angle. In practice, the aim of the
> writer has nothing to do with assassinating the character of Cretans,
> but with demonstrating a lack of logical symmetry between first-person
> testimony and third-person statement. The former draws its currency in
> certain cases from the stance and personal history of the speaker.
> Here the writer disparages the value of endless verbal rhetoric. This
> can be self-defeating unless the speaker lives a blameless life which
> gives his or her speech operative currency. Hence this proposition is
> a meta-statement about self-defeating language and also an injunction
> to focus on the kind of life-style urged throughout the epistle to
> give validity to the witness of the church and of its elders. In my
> article I offer reasons why Patristic exegesis set subsequent
> interpretation [of this text] on the wrong track.
> We conclude that 'truth' in the biblical writings is more complex,
> subtle, and richly diverse in emphasis than alleged differences
> between 'Greek' and 'Hebraic' notions of truth suggest. W. Pannenberg
> rightly perceives that they do not characteristically view truth as
> 'timeless' or abstract. 'The truth of God must prove itself anew.'
> Truth 'proves itself in relationships and thus has personal
> character'.
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