[B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 9 17:24:57 EST 2009
Why would the one necessarily negate the other?
B.Harris
“The more counsel, the more understanding” – Hillel
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From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>; "yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net" <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:07:03 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
Whether or not "Paul" believed Zeus was buried in Crete doesn't enter into the picture. He is concerned solely with the character of the Cretan people and agrees that one of their own properly depicted their character.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
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________________________________
From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
To: "yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net" <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:29:48 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
Dear Yancy -
Are you saying then, that Paul's affirmation hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real? So that, in English it would be better to translate it, "This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period)
B.Harris
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From: "yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net" <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 6:16:23 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony? He says:
εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·
Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.
ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,
EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—
KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.
hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEI
Check out Phil Towner's comments on this verse in his commentary on the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS is verbal irony. The statement that "Cretans are always liars, etc. ..." was an old saw, and especially "true" with regard to religious matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment to encourage Titus.
Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might remind ourselves of JL Austin, "How to Do Things with Words" who begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that of being true, at least in parts.”
Yancy Smith
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Y.W.Smith at tcu.edu
yancy at wbtc..com
5636 Wedgworth Road
Fort Worth, TX 76133
817-361-7565
On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
> I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.
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