[B-Greek] John 3:16 "so"
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 16 11:32:26 EST 2009
After all of your verbiage, if I recall correctly, the original question you posed was whether the ὥστε hWSTE in Jn 3.16 indicated degree or manner. In the Trallians passage Ignatius seems to be using it in the sense of degree though I continue to think that in Jn 3.16 it is used as "manner."
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 at earthlink.net>
To: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 11:17:55 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:16 "so"
Hi, George,
> οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ
> ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλʼ ἔχῃ ζωὴν
> αἰώνιον.
> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1>
>
> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1>
> hOUTWS GAR HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONGENH
> EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL' EXHi ZWHN AIWNION
>
> While I tend to agree with Steve regarding the meaning of the passage,
> let me present an opposing witness regarding this usage.
>
>
> 1.1 Ἄμωμον διάνοιαν καὶ ἀδιάκριτον ἐν ὑπομονῇ ἔγνων ὑμᾶς ἔχοντας, οὐ
> κατὰ χρῆσιν ἀλλὰ κατὰ φύσιν, καθὼς ἐδήλωσέν μοι Πολύβιος ὁ ἐπίσκοπος
> ὑμῶν, ὃς παρεγένετο θελήματι θεοῦ καὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν Σμύρνῃ,
> καὶ *** οὕτως μοι συνεχάρη *** δεδεμένῳ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ***
> ὥστε *** με τὸ πᾶν πλῆθος ὑμῶν ἐν αὐτῷ θεωρῆσαι. (2) ἀποδεξάμενος
> οὖν τὴν κατὰ θεὸν εὔνοιαν διʼ αὐτοῦ, ἐδόξασα εὑρὼν ὑμᾶς, ὡς ἔγνων,
> μιμητὰς ὄντας θεοῦ.
>
> 1.1 AMWMON DIANOIAN KAI ADIAKRITON EN hUPOMONHi EGNWN hUMAS EXONTAS OU
> KATA KRHSIN ALLA KATA FUSIN, KAQWS EDHLWSEN MOI POLUBIOS hO EPISKOPOS
> hUMWN, hOS PAREGENETO QELHMATI IHSOU XRISTOU EN SMURNHi, KAI hOUTWS
> MOI SUNEXARH DEDEMENWi EN XRISTWi IHSOU, hWSTE ME TO PAN PLHQOS hUMWN
> EN AUTWi QEWRHSAI. (2) APODECAMENOS OUN THN KATA QEON EUNOIAN DI'
> AUTOU, EDOCASA hEURWN hUMAS, hWS EGNWN, MIMHTAS ONTAS QEOU.
> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1>
>
> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1>
> Holmes, M. W. (1999). /The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English
> translations/ (Updated ed.) (158). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
>
>
>
> I'll take pity on some of the littler Greeks and provide Holmes'
> translation as well.
>
>
>
> *1. *I know that you have a disposition that is blameless and
> unwavering in patient endurance, not from habit but by nature,
> inasmuch as Polybius your bishop informed me when, by the will of God
> and Jesus Christ, he visited me in Smyrna; *** so heartily did he
> rejoice with me ***, a prisoner in Christ Jesus, *** that *** in
> him I saw your entire congregation. (2) Having received, therefore,
> your godly good will through him, I praised God when I found out that
> you were, as I had learned, imitators of God.
> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1>
>
> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1>
> Holmes, M. W. (1999). /The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English
> translations/ (Updated ed.) (159). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
>
HH: Thank you for supplying this passage, George, with both the Greek
and the English. This is Ignatius' /Epistle to the Trallians/, at the
start of the first chapter, but it raises the issues that appear in John
3:16: is the author pointing backward or forward with hOUTWS? The first
line is addressed to the Trallians as a group.
HH: Really Robert Gundry's article (/Novum Testamentum/, 1999) was
trying to break down the paradigm whereby such passages have been
translated as above, since he presents many similar passages to argue
that a preceding context shows that hOUTWS is looking backward instead
of forward. He may be mistaken. I have not studied all the passages. But
in this passage, I can see what he might say.
HH: First there is mention of the admirable qualities of the Trallians.
Then there is mention of Polybius, who was their overseer and had noted
these qualities about the Trallians to Ignatius (so Polybius was aware
of their significance). Then Ignatius relates that Polybius "hOUTWS
rejoiced together with me, bound in Jesus Christ, hWSTE I beheld the
whole multitude of you in him." To me it looks as though Ignatius is
saying that Polybius exhibited the very qualities that he had borne
witness to as characteristic of the Trallians, a blameless mind that was
unwavering in patient endurance. The Trallians were blameless and
unwavering in patient endurance in the persecution that they faced for
their confession of faith in Christ Jesus. Polybius evidently showed
these same qualities by his sympathy for Ignatius, who in the context,
was bound as a Christian and was facing martyrdom.
HH: Polybius' rejoicing together with Ignatius was the outgrowth of a
quality of other-worldly endurance of suffering for Christ's sake that
marked the Trallian church as a whole and that permitted a perspective
of joy with respect to Ignatius' bondage. Ignatius saw the whole
Trallian church in Polybius because he exhibited the same qualities that
Polybius admired in his congregation of Trallians. hOUTWS can look
backward to the description of the Trallians that Ignatius gives at the
start of the letter. Ignatius seems to be saying that Polybius'
rejoicing with him in his bondage was of such a manner that it reflected
the character of the entire church as Ignatius had just described it.
HH: The argument for HOUTWS looking backward is that Polybius' rejoicing
together with Ignatius in his bondage was due to the fact that he had a
blameless mind in Christ and was unwavering in patient endurance in his
own life. Thus he was ready to rejoice with Ignatius in what Ignatius
had to patiently endure despite being blameless.
Yours,
Harold Holmyard
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