[B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Dec 18 15:53:50 EST 2009


You may translate / interpret it in any fashion you desire.  You would not be the first nor the last to misconstrue a passage.

george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
To: Brian Abasciano <bvabasciano at gmail.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 1:44:15 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?


George:

I think you continue to misunderstand or misconstrue my question(s) and my reason(s) for 
asking it/them. But I'll try again:

1. Can the phrase EK PISTEWS MOU in Habbakuk 2:4b be translated/interpreted as an 
objective genitive for MOU? (I know that's two separate questions. I.e.., while a person 
might say that it "can" be translated that way, someone might still object that the context 
and original Hebrew text don't allow it to be interpreted that way - though I would argue that 
what a reader is "allowed" to interpret this phrase here in the LXX as meaning is not set 
in stone.)

2. Granted that it "can" be translated that way - and I think that fact has been affirmed by 
some of the responders (i.e., that it "can" grammatically be an objective genitive) - then I 
would suggest that it's probably not right to rule out of hand (even by appealing to the 
Hebrew) such a possible interpretation/exegesis of Habbakuk 2:4b by Paul (even though 
he omits the MOU) for understanding what he might mean by the terms PISTIS and 
PISTEUW here and elsewhere in Romans. I.e., since Habbakuk 2:4 is a key prooftext for 
Paul, I think one should consider the possible ways he could have understood and used it, 
including the less probable (but not impossible) ones.

- - -
Eric S. Weiss 

- - -
Eric S. Weiss 

--- On Fri, 12/18/09, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:


>From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>To: "Eric S. Weiss" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>, "Brian Abasciano" <bvabasciano at gmail.com>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 2:23 PM
>
>
>Are you saying that the interpreter's task is to read which might conceivably be possible rather than what the author demonstrably meant?  That if the sytax can be manipulated to render a different meaning then that meaning is legitimate?
> george
>gfsomsel 
>
>
>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>defend the truth till death.
>
>
>- Jan Hus
>_________ 
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
>To: Brian Abasciano <bvabasciano at gmail.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 12:39:10 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>
>
>But my question is actually one removed from how the translator of the LXX read or 
>understood or misunderstood or misread the Hebrew text.
>
>I'm asking if a reader/interpreter/expositor of the LXX could have read EK PISTEWS MOU 
>in Habbakuk 2:4b and felt the freedom to regard or treat it as an objective genitive for 
>interpretive and midrashic purposes because it's grammatically possible (let alone because 
>he might have, rightly or wrongly, felt that was its proper sense).
>
>I think the fact that it's grammatically possible/allowable opens up the possibility that it's 
>interpretively possible, too. Whether that is what Paul meant by his use of Habbakuk 2:4b 
>(though without the MOU) in Romans 1:16-17 to support what he means by PISTIS and 
>PISTEUW there is a separate question, but if this is a possibility, then I think it has to be 
>considered among other options for interpreting Paul in Romans 1:16-17 and elsewhere.
>
>- - -
>Eric S. Weiss 
>
>--- On Fri, 12/18/09, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>>To: "Brian Abasciano" <bvabasciano at gmail.com>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org, "Weiss, Eric" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
>>Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 1:18 PM
>>
>>
>>There are a few things of which we are reasonably sure.  One of these is that the translators of the LXX tended to translate rather literally.  The difference between "my faith" and "his faith" is the difference between reading a waw or a yod in the Hebrew.  Another secure fact is that the pronominal suffix of the Massoretic text at this point being a waw is in some scripts little different from the yod.  It therefore seems most likely that the waw was confused for a waw.  There is a passage in the MT which speaks of having faith in God
>>
>>וְעַד־אָנָה לֹא־יַאֲמִינוּ בִי
>>ἕως τίνος οὐ πιστεύουσίν μοι 
>>hEWS TINOS PISTEUOUSIN MOI
>>(Num 14.11)
>>
>>"How long will they not have faith in me?"
>>
>>Note that this is not expressed by a pronominal suffix but rather by a preposition with the pronominal suffix.  I'm sure that the translators were well aware of this and would not have translated it so as to imply that they would have understood ἐκ πίστεώς μου EK PISTEWS MOU as "faith in me" (or "believing me").
>>
>> george
>>gfsomsel 
>>
>>
>>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>>defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>>- Jan Hus
>>_________  
>
> george
>gfsomsel 
>
>
>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>defend the truth till death.
>
>
>- Jan Hus
>_________ 
> 



      



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