[B-Greek] Did the shepherds believe? Luke 2:15

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Dec 22 12:58:38 EST 2009


I seem to recall that when C. S. Lewis was taking Greek he was allowed a pony -- in Latin.
 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 



----- Original Message ----
From: Barry <nebarry at verizon.net>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 10:37:58 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Did the shepherds believe? Luke 2:15



> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jay Adkins" <jayadkins264 at gmail.com>
> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 3:51 AM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Did the shepherds believe? Luke 2:15

Greetings, Jay, commentaria infra:

>
> Dear BGreek,
>
> Luke 2:15b DIELQWMEN DH EWS BHQLEEM KAI IDWMEN TO RHMA TOUTO YEYOVOS O hO
> KURIOS EGNWRISEN HMIN
>
> Let us go now to Bethlehem that we might see [if] this saying has happened
> which the Lord has made known to us.
>
> Let us go now to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened which the
> Lord has made known to us.
>
> When I first translated I thought to add the [if] into the words of the
> shepherds.  I did this due to the subjunctive of both verbs.  Since,
> however, I found no support from other translations, I removed it.  And 
> then
> I change the term saying to thing and also removed that we might
> replacing it with and so as to make a smoother English phrase and to agree
> with the other translations.  Now I understand that the subjunctive can be
> used for an imperative instead of potential action.  My question is what 
> key
> in the context is there here that I missed?  How do we know for sure that
> the shepherds believed the word of the angels or were in some doubt and
> needed proof?  Secondly, in a construct such as this one, can one
> subjunctive be used as an imperative and the other as a more normal
> subjunctive?  I had no problem understanding from the context the first 
> verb
> was to be used as an imperative.  Should that have been enough to 
> understand
> the second verb was also being used as an imperative?
>
> Once again let me thank all those who might respond and those responsible
> for this web site.  It is such a blessing to be able to ask and learn from
> others.

1) Both subjunctives are independent hortatory subjunctives, "let us."  You 
left the καί, KAI, out entirely.

2) Nothing in the text specifically states whether they were in doubt or 
not, but somehow (and this is contextual), the fact that an angel had 
appeared to them probably meant they had little doubt.  "This thing that has 
happened" translates the participial phrase τὸ γεγονός.  Now, as substantive 
participle, it could be taken conditionally if the context demands it, but I 
think that is unlikely.  Jerome renders *quod factum est*, "that which 
happened, correctly, I think, with no hint of any conditional sense.  The 
sense of it is simply that they wanted to see what happened, of which the 
angel had informed them.

Anecdote Alert!

This time of year at The American Academy I always take a break from the 
regularly scheduled program to read the Christmas story (Matthew and Luke in 
alternating years) in Latin, and Greek for the Greek students.  I told the 
Greek students that we would go over the Latin of Luke 2:1-20 in their Latin 
class, but told them to keep the Latin out for comparative purposes (they 
are doing AP Vergil this year, so their Latin is more than up to the task). 
I asked one student to translate, and he piped "Just a second."  I noticed 
him looking surreptitiously at the Latin before rendering his reading of the 
Greek.  I said, "At how many schools does a student 'cheat' on his Greek 
text by looking at the Latin?  :)

N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Fecisti nos ad te et inquietum est cor nostrum, donec requiescat in te...
    -- Augustine, Confessions 1:1

http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry/
http://my.opera.com/BarryHofstetter/blog/ 

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