[B-Greek] the ur-Mistake in reading Greek and what, if anything, can be done about it

Scott Kennedy dustiescott222755 at hotmail.com
Sat Jan 3 23:23:20 EST 2009


I fully agree with what you're saying, but Ancient Greek is a fairly dead language, a lot deader than Latin anyway. You aren't required (usually) to think in it and actually construct sentences that someone else will understand, so that makes it more difficult. Spoken is what fixes the ur problem, but we don't have that with Ancient Greek. 
    To answer your question as a fellow student you makes the mistake, though much less infrequently than I used to, I reccomend above all reading, reading, reading! Not difficult reading, pulp fiction actually! The Greek novels such as :
 
Ephysiaca by Xenophon of Ephesus
G. Dalmeyda, Xénophon d'Éphèse. Les Éphésiaques ou le roman d'Habrocomès et d'Anthia. Paris: Les Belles Lettres, 1926 (repr. 1962): 3-77.
 
Love Tales about Kalliroe by Chariton
B.P. Reardon, Charitonis Aphrodisiensis de Callirhoe  narrationes amatoriae. Munich-Leipzig: K.G. Saur, 2004: 1-147.
 
Daphnis and Chloe by Longus
G. Dalmeyda, Longus. Pastorales (Daphnis et Chloé). Paris: Les Belles Lettres, 1934 (repr. 1971): 2-106.
a classic, Aesop's Fables (that's what they used to teach young children Greek a long time ago, so why not use it now!)
 
For a more humorous, but literary read, Lucian's True Tales (ALHQWN DIHGHMATWN)
 
All of these are wonderful, good stories you can read and read. These aren't the Homer and more difficult authors teachers insist on using teach Ancient Greek to students who are gramplng with the insane amount of grammar they teach you in the first two years, but simple easy to read stories that get you reading Greek quickly. My favorite of those listed above is Xenophon's Ephesiaka. The plot's repetitive, but it's a good story of around 20,000 words that I read in about 4 or 5 hours. The repetition is exactly what you need. That's what the man in John's example did, he repeated and repeated those tapes. Word order, I think is one of the biggest stumbling blocks and that how this helps you to piece together the sentence and enjoy the story without too contrived of construction. Perhaps Dr. Conrad or someone else can tell me why we don't do simple novels like these in second year Greek or reading courses, just out of curiousity?
 
To help basic reading mistakes, I don't recommend the policy which my teacher used of NVLB (No Verb Left Behind:), which I think works as effectively as its educational equivalent. There are a couple of things that will seriously help you out if you look for them in a sentence. My policy is PAYF (Participles Are Your Friends) because they'll help you out a lot fitting together the sentence. Try this one.
   ERCHOMENOS DE MENOS ANQRWPWN ESBHSE hYPOLEIPONTA XEIMWNAS.
 
Poetic, huh? Well, With PAYF, you see ERCHOMENOS and know that something coming is M. sing. Nom., which when you know MENOS is neuter eliminates it and makes you realize it goes with hYPOLEIPONTA and means the subject is XEIMWNAS. So "The coming winter (or 'storm') extinguished the strength of the men that remained. Participles are fairly well distinguished Present (-WN, OUSA, ON) Past (AS, ASA, AN) Perfect (-WS, -UIA,-OS), and the rest something (-MENOS/MENH/MENON). Articles are also a great way to think about it (hO, hH, TO). Above all, though, context is everything! I had no idea what in the hell a fardel was and I would not without knowing what was going on when it was said, or without your definition.
 
Best of Luck and here's to ur mistakes because that's part of how you learn,
      Scott Kennedy
                  > Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 06:38:58 +0800> From: john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com> To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com> CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] the ur-Mistake in reading Greek and what, if anything, can be done about it> > My own view is that the ur-mistake is generally a function of insufficient> oral/aural practice. If one uses a sport as an analog to language learning,> then if one studies boxing or karate, for example, one does not wish to> analyze the opponents moves; otherwise one may become rather bloodied and> bruised. The ur-mistakes you are referring to is the equivalent of being> bloodied and bruised. The response should be intuitive and automatic, and> this intuitiveness and "automaticness" is learned through practice and more> practice.> > A number of years ago my wife was teaching Japanese for the University of> Washington. She was in a program that taught professionals Japanese,> individuals with PhD or Masters degrees in science, engineering, business> management, etc. One day an individual who had studied on his own, an> individual who had not gone to college, asked if she would tutor him. He> had been studying on his own from a Berlitz travel tape. For eight months> he practiced from that tape. He would record his voice on another recorder> and compare with the tape, and he practiced and practiced and practiced till> he wore the tape out.> > He was not smarter that the other students, but he was more diligent in his> practicing the language. In eight months he was further ahead than students> in the regular university program who had studied for three years. He had> learned how to be intuitive and respond automatically to the language.> > What I think is missing is a good program based on Dr. Buth's (and Dr.> Conrad's) idea or concept of language learning. The core of the program> will be, in my mind, a good portable language lab. I know that Rosetta> stone is a popular model for many today, but I would tend toward a blending> of Pimsleur and Fluenz. Not that the particular brands are important, just> the methodology they use. It makes no difference, though, because the> programs do not exist and someone needs to develop the programs.> > Even if someone did not have much time, let us say only two 15 minute blocks> a day, then that would be three hours if they could practice six days a> week. In one year that would be 150 hours. If you took a class, 50 minutes> a day, five days a week and there were 10 students in the class and the> usage of time was very efficient so that you individually received five> minutes of direct active participation in the language and 45 minutes of> passive hearing. And if we assume that the passive hearing helps you to> gain language fluency 1/2 of the active participation, then in three years> of class time you will have achieved what you did in the two 15 minute time> blocks.> > Anyway, that is what I think is the problem.> > John Sanders> Suzhou, China> (on temporary holiday in the States)> > > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 2:57 AM, Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>wrote:> > > When I read unfamiliar Greek, I often make a sort of> > basic, fundamental mistake, what I call the ur-mistake.> > The ur-mistake is when you don't look carefully enough> > at the Greek and your brain jumps ahead and misconstrues> > the text, mistaking the unfamiliar for something that is> > familiar. An example: You see the sentence hIPPEA> > ESTHSEN. You know that hIPPOS means "horse"> > and that iSTHMI sort of means "I stand," and so you> > construe this as "A horse stood up." Your brain does> > this in a split second. Except of course that> > hIPPEA ESTHSEN does not mean "A horse stood up"> > because the word is not hIPPOS but hIPPEUS> > ("horseman,") and it's in the accusative not the> > nominative, so it can't be the subject. Plus,> > ESTHSEN is the FIRST aorist, so it is transitive,> > not intransitive. The sentence, of course, means> > "He made the horseman stop." When you are> > in ur-mistake mode, you glom on to basic meanings> > of words, and little things like endings> > (not to mention accents and breathings marks)> > don't make much of an impression on you.> > I recently read the phrase PROS DIOS> > and my brain jumped to "to Zeus." In> > ur-mistake mode, you don't notice that> > PROS is here with the genitive and so the> > phrase really means the opposite of what> > you think it means, "FROM Zeus." You> > just see PROS, you are used to it meaning> > "to" and so that is how you read it. The examples> > of ur-mistakes could go on and on; I'm sure you> > have lots of them too. This morning, I read in the> > Iliad the unfamiliar word hUPERMENEI. I should> > have noticed the accent on the last syllable, so this> > cannot be a verb. It is dative of hUPERMENES, NS,> > "very mighty." But the declension of these adjectives,> > and the morpheme MENOS are not as familiar to me> > as the verb MENO, and so I ur-mistaked this as> > "he is really remaining." (If you are wondering> > whether there is such a verb as hUPERMENW,> > the answer is, there is now.)> >> > A number of factors lead to ur-mistakes.> > A lot of Greek forms look alike, with just> > a letter or two resulting in totally different> > meanings. This is setting aside confusion of> > similar looking words life TREPO (I turn) and> > TREFO (I nourish) or NOSOS (disease) and> > NHSOS (island) and NOSSOS (young bird)> > and NHOS (of a ship.) I don't know if Greek> > has more words that look alike than other languages> > or not, but it drives me crazy. Another problem is> > that it is easy to ur-mistake transitive words for> > intransitive words. Whenever I see any form of hIZW> > ( I CAUSE to sit down) I always ur-mistake it as "I sit down."> > Same with EUPHRAINW, which does not mean "I rejoice"> > (except in the passive) but "I make someone else rejoice."> > I don't have the statistics to back it up, but I would> > guess that the default meanings of most Greek verbs> > are causative/transitive while the default meanings> > of the English equivalents are intransitive. So, I think> > our English speaking brains are hardwired for these> > ur-mistakes. Same with word order. My first Greek> > teacher warned me about this. She pointed out that> > when I say to you "Me bit the cat" you cannot help> > but have a mental picture where I take a bite out of the> > kitty. But of course "Me, bit the cat" simply means "The> > cat bit me." But in English, word order is a stronger> > indicator of meaning than grammar or even than> > what makes sense. So I think for most of us, when> > we see a noun and then a verb, as in the example> > of hIPPEA ESTHSEN, we just automatically> > ur-mistake this into subject and predicate.> >> > So the question I have is, what can be done about> > cutting down on ur-mistakes? I find that I am> > making them less and less, but I still make them,> > and I bet you do too. On one level, we are TAUGHT> > to make ur-mistakes. Conrad and Buth (or maybe it is> > Buth and Conrad) tell us that we are SUPPOSED> > to read Greek quickly, that we are not supposed to> > analyze every little letter but we are supposed to try> > to read naturally and guess the meanings. But this is> > where the ur-mistakes come in. We see a word> > like hUPERMENEI and instead of our brain saying,> > "I don't recognize that word. I better slow down> > and try to figure out what it means or look it up", we say,> > "that means 'he is really remaining!'" It's like so much> > Greek is unfamiliar that we latch on to what is familiar> > (or what we think is familiar) and we go astray. I don't> > think I do this when reading unfamiliar English. When I> > read Hamlet asking "Who would fardels bear?" my brain> > quickly says "What the hell is a fardel?" and I quickly,> > CORRECTLY guess the meaning because I KNOW I> > don't know what it means. In ur-mistake mode, I would> > confuse "fardel" with "barrel", allow word order to cause> > me to ignore the fact that "Who" is the subject, and ur-mistake> > this as "Whom would the barrels carry?" If this seems> > farfetched, examine some of your own recent Greek ur-mistakes.> > ( A fardel, by the way, is a burden.)> >> > The only way it seems to me to cut down on ur-mistakes> > is to read MORE slowly, to examine every word very> > carefully with your eyes before allowing your brain to> > deceive you. But this seems counter-intuitive if the> > goal is to read quickly and naturally. Maybe ancient> > Greek is not meant to be read quickly and naturally?> > Or maybe ur-mistakes are necessary parts of the> > learning process that go away after a century or> > so of reading Greek. But if anyone has any tips for> > reducing ur-mistakes, let me know.> >> > Mark L> >> >> >> > ---> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek> > B-Greek mailing list> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek> >> > > > --> ---> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek> B-Greek mailing list> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008


More information about the B-Greek mailing list