[B-Greek] Theologically motivated translation, at times
Donald COBB
docobb at orange.fr
Wed Jul 1 01:03:04 EDT 2009
One additional note on Mark 11:20. There are times when looking only at the
text in question can suggest possibilities for understanding that become
more difficult when the overall context is taken into suggestion. I do
believe that Mark 11:20 is one of those texts.
It is obviously possible, grammatically, to take ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ, ECETE
PISTIN QEOU in this verse as a subjective genitive ("have the
faith/faithfulness of God") A quick look at the other uses of ECW + PISTIS
in the Gospels, though, reveals a couple of interesting things. First of
all, of the five passages where the expression occurs in the Synoptics all
of which are closely related in terms of content, this is the only
one--including parallel passages--that takes a genitive. I mention only the
Gospels, for questions of context, but the other two occurences in the NT
are analogous (1 Tim. 1:19; Act 14:9 is constructed with gen. + verb: ἔχει
πίστιν τοῦ σωθῆναι, ECEI PISTIN TOU SWQHNAI). Secondly, several of these
passages are probably parallel uses of the same logion, and the reasonable
translation in those verses is "If you have faith":
Matthew 17:20 ὁ δὲ λέγει αὐτοῖς· διὰ τὴν ὀλιγοπιστίαν ὑμῶν· ἀμὴν γὰρ λέγω
ὑμῖν ἐὰν ἔχητε πίστιν ὡς κόκκον σινάπεως ἐρεῖτε τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ· μετάβα ἔνθεν
ἐκεῖ καὶ μεταβήσεται· καὶ οὐδὲν ἀδυνατήσει ὑμῖν,
hO DE LEGEI AUTOIS· DIA THN OLIGOPISTIAN hUMWN· AMHN GAR LEGW hUMIN EAN
ECHTE PISTIN hWS KOKKON SINAPEWS EREITE TWi OREI TOUTWi· METABA ENQEN EKEI
KAI METABHSETAI· KAI OUDEN ADUNATHSEI hUMIN
Matthew 21:21 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ἐὰν ἔχητε
πίστιν καὶ μὴ διακριθῆτε οὐ μόνον τὸ τῆς συκῆς ποιήσετε ἀλλὰ κἂν τῷ ὄρει
τούτῳ εἴπητε· ἄρθητι καὶ βλήθητι εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν γενήσεται·
APOKRIQEIS DE hO IHSOUS EIPEN AUTOIS· AMHN LEGW hUMIN EAN ECHTE PISTIN KAI
MH DIAKRIQHTE OU MONON TO THS SUKHS POIHSETE ALLA KA)N TWi OREI TOUTWi
EIPHTE· ARQHTI KAI BLHQHTI EIS THN QALASSAN GENHSETAI·
Mark 4:40 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Τί δειλοί ἐστε; οὔπω ἔχετε πίστιν;
KAI EIPEN AUTOIS TI DEILOI ESTE; OUPW ECETE PISTIN;
Mark 11:22: καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς· ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ.
KAI APOKRIQEIS hO IHSOUS LEGEI AUTOIS· ECETE PISTIN QEOU.
Luke 17:6: εἶπεν δὲ ὁ κύριος· εἰ ἔχετε πίστιν ὡς κόκκον σινάπεως, ἐλέγετε ἂν
τῇ συκαμίνῳ [ταύτῃ]· ἐκριζώθητι καὶ φυτεύθητι ἐν τῇ θαλάσσῃ· καὶ ὑπήκουσεν
ἂν ὑμῖν.
EIPEN DE hO KURIOS· EI ECETE PISTIN hWS KOKKON SINAPEWS, ELEGETE AN THi
SUKAMINWi [TAUTHi]· EKRIZWQHTI KAI FUTEUQHTI EN THi QALASSHi· KAI hUPHKOUSEN
AN hUMIN.
It is of course possible that Mark, in adding a genitive construction, was
trying to put a specific twist on the saying, thus parting company with the
Dominical Tradition he was using. However, inasmuch as a noun + genitive
noun is often used in the NT with an objective connotation, it's far more
likely, given the overall context, that the construction here is genitive an
objective genitive and that the verse should be understood as it usually is:
"Have faith in God".
Donald Cobb
Aix-en-Provence, France
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; "B Greek"
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; "Mitch Larramore" <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Theologically motivated translation, at times
> What is rather intriguing to me from the Wallace text below is that
> although he
> has so many different categories for the genitive, he seems to think of
> only
> two, subjective and objective. He talks about "God as object" and the only
> other
> option he mentions is the subjective "Have the faith that God haves".
> Since the
> second is rather strange, he chooses the first.
> But, who said that these are the only two options? One option which might
> fit
> this context is source. The kind of faith that God gives to people or
> inspires
> people to have. It would be akin to "the gift of faith". And it would be
> close
> to what Mark suggested below: "divine faith" although this is basically a
> descriptive use.
>
> The source option is partly supported by places like
> Rom 12.3 hWS hO QEOS EMERISEN METRON PISTEWS
>
> Eph 6:23 EIRHNH TOIS ADELFOIS KAI AGAPH META PISTEWS APO QEOU PATROS KAI
> KURIOU
> IHSOU CRISTOU
>
> So, I would say that the two best candidates are the objective and source
> genitive interpretations.
> Obviously, theology place an important part for all Bible translators, and
> if
> they don't acknowledge that, I think they are fooling themselves. It is
> helpful
> to comment on the more controversial places in footnotes.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> To: "B Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; "Mitch Larramore"
> <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com>
> Sent: 28. juni 2009 15:17
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Theologically motivated translation, at times
>
>
>> Mitch,
>>
>> Thanks for pointing this out. I had not noticed it before.
>>
>> All the translations I checked offer "Have faith in God" except
>> two. Rheims offers "Have the faith of God" and Montgomery
>> offers "Take hold on God's faithfulness." The Modern Greek
>> also has "in God" (NA EXETE PISTH STO QEO.) I was surprised
>> to find that the phrase PISTIS QEOU occurs only here and in
>> Rom 3:3, where is means something like "God's faithfulness,"
>> but certainly not "faith in God."
>>
>> I think I know which groups Wallace is taking about, and it
>> seems to me that they would be justified in construing this
>> not as faith in God but as the sort of faith that God Himself has,
>> maybe even the sort of faith that Jesus has. The NET editors
>> themselves do a good job in highlighting those cases in
>> Paul (e.g. Gal 2:16) where PISTIS IHSOU CRISTOU may not mean faith
>> IN Jesus at all, but the saving fidelity OF Jesus in going to
>> the cross. It seems to me that all "Word of Faith" folks
>> would be doing in Mk 11:20 is construing it as a "subjective
>> GENIKN," as Wallace might say, but in a different direction,
>> not the faithfulness of Jesus, but the sort of superhuman faith
>> that believers can have. I myself would render Mk 11:20 with something
>> like "Get hold of divine faith." The thing about theologically motivated
>> translations is that even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
>>
>> Mark L
>> Φωσφορος Μαρκος
>> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Mitch Larramore <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Mitch Larramore <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Theologically motivated translation, at times
>> To: "B Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 4:49 AM
>>
>>
>>
>> I read the following short blurb by Dr. Wallace on Mark 11.22 and the
>> reason
>> for translating ECETE PISTIN QEOU. My question is below the blurb, and
>> this
>> topic is coincidental to the resent set of exchanges about GGBB's
>> discussion
>> of the Genitive.
>>
>> Why doesn't the translation of the genitive in Mark 11:22 use the word
>> of? How
>> is theology used to translate this verse?
>> By: Daniel B. Wallace
>>
>> The Greek genitive case can be used in dozens of ways, and to leave it as
>> simply an 'of' idea is often very misleading. For example, the genitive
>> case
>> is used with the comparative adjective for the idea of comparison. We
>> would
>> translate this something like, "His car is better THAN her car." The
>> 'than' is
>> the genitive word 'of.' But to translate it as 'his car is better OF her
>> car'
>> doesn't make any sense. In Mark 11:22, although there are a couple of
>> valid
>> ways to translate the text, when one is dealing with God as the object,
>> it's
>> difficult to think of more than one. So, yes, theology does play a part
>> in
>> translation, but necessarily so. There are some groups that want to
>> translate
>> this passage as 'Have the faith that God has' but such an idea is
>> unparalleled
>> anywhere else in the Bible and doesn't fit the context. 'Have faith in
>> God' is
>> the preferred translation and meaning.
>>
>> [End of paragraph]
>>
>> Is that really true that the translation "of God" is perhaps expected,
>> but for
>> theological reasons, "in God" is substituted? It seems strange to me to
>> suggest that deviations from the translation "of xyz" for the Genitive
>> may
>> result from theological motives, especially in a "theological" book!
>>
>> Mitch Larramore
>> Sugar Land, Texas
>
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