[B-Greek] Causative MP? (was...APARNHQHSETAI in Lk 12.9 (archive post by Dr. Conrad))
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sat Jul 4 11:18:02 EDT 2009
Match,
(Yes, I meant "Match" since "fosforos" is the Spanish for "match."
Please don't be changing the classic quotations. I believe it was Freud who said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." What's this with bananas? :-)
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: Mitch Larramore <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com>; Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Cc: B Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 7:58:05 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Causative MP? (was...APARNHQHSETAI in Lk 12.9 (archive post by Dr. Conrad))
The irony of your post is that I THINK what Carl and others
have been saying is that often what appear to be vanilla
passives are sort of middles, but in this case Carl, I think, is
making the point that deponents sometimes are pure passives.
Sometimes a banana is just a banana, and sometimes ( but not
often) a passive is just a passive
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
--- On Sat, 7/4/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Causative MP? (was...APARNHQHSETAI in Lk 12.9 (archive post by Dr. Conrad))
To: "Mitch Larramore" <mitchlarramore at yahoo.com>
Cc: "B Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 5:33 AM
On Jul 4, 2009, at 6:04 AM, Mitch Larramore wrote:
>
> Dr. Conrad:
>
> Dr. Wallace in GGBB (p. 423...) distinguishes the Causative Middle
> from the Permissive Middle, although he says they are almost
> interchangeable.
Well, I am one who has repeatedly warned against blurring important
distinctions. On the other hand, I have had some difficulties
discerning some of the distinctions (especially between subcategories
of the adnominal genitive) that Dr. Wallace has delineated (there are
two rather neat ones, however: the "plenary" genitive, which has a
nice "push yourself back from the dinner table" feel to it -- after
discovering an adnominal genitive that is BOTH subjective AND
objective; and then my favorite of all, the "aporetic" genitive --
what I have called the "Abbot & Costello I don't know's on third"
subcategory). I really should turn this whole countdown of reasons why
I don't like the subcategories of the adnominal genitive in GGBB" to
Mark Lightman, who has a flair for this sort of thing. But with my
impoverished imagination, I can only say about the distinction between
Causative Middle and Permissive Middle, "If it looks like a duck,
walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... "
> His examples tend to revolve around grooming, other than Judas
> EKTHSATO CWRION.
meaning that a real estate agent actually carried out the purchase, I
guess. I think I mentioned BAPTIZOMAI in my original response. Iver
(and others too, I'm sure) believe that this verb has only two
arguments, subject and patient. But consider the mysterious verse in 1
Cor 15:29 Ἐπεὶ τί ποιήσουσιν οἱ
βαπτιζόμενοι ὑπὲρ τῶν νεκρῶν; εἰ
ὅλως νεκροὶ οὐκ ἐγείρονται, τί καὶ
βαπτίζονται ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν; [EPEI TI POIHSOUSIN
hOI BAPTIZOMENOI hUPER TWN NEKRON? EI hOLWS NEKROI OUK EGEIRONTAI, TI
KAI BAPTIZONTAI hUPER AUTWN?] Or there's the even stranger Acts 22:16
καὶ νῦν τί μέλλεις; ἀναστὰς
βάπτισαι καὶ ἀπόλουσαι τὰς
ἁμαρτίας σου ἐπικαλεσάμενος τὸ
ὄνομα αὐτοῦ. [KAI NUN TI MELLEIS? ANASTAS BAPTISAI KAI
APOLOUSAI TAS hAMARTIAS SOU EPIKALOUMENOS TO ONOMA AUTOU.] Two bits
says that BAPTISAI here is causative middle; a quarter says it's
permissive middle (does it mean the same thing as BAPTISQHTI?).
> I think we could add several more usages or categories of the MP
> than Wallace gives. And I like the idea of the subject CAUSING the
> subsequent action by the subject's previous actions/decision. And, I
> would translate the Lk 12.9 passage with the idea that... those who
> deny Jesus... DIRECTLY (not indirectly, although that would be an
> option as well) cause the denial that ensues at a subsequent time.
> The subject causes a delayed reaction, as it were (giving it the
> appearance of being two separate actions).
"hoist by one's own petard," as the bard says (from Hamlet (iii. iv.
207).
> Could this usage of (inherent in) the Middle be one reason why its
> morphoparadigm is the same as the Passive's? This Causative Middle
> has the 'appearance' of being a Passive, but the Middle answers a
> question the Passive doesn't: Who is responsible for this action?
> Why this action? The Causative Middle answers that, whereas the
> Passive has no interest in any (causal) agent.
I think you have hit the nail on the head, Mitch. Some languages
(quite a few, in fact) use reflexive constructions to express passive
ideas, as "Aqui se habla español": literally, "Spanish speaks itself
here" -- but meaning, 'Spanish is spoken here." Suzanne Kemmer
discusses these reflexives as middle or passive at length in _The
Middle Voice_.
> I guess one would have to know/guess the author's motive or
> intention in order to distinguish the Causative Middle from a plain,
> vanilla Passive. Perhaps then I'm arguing that a Causative "Passive"
> would not exist (it would actually be a Causative Middle, since
> Passive's suppress the agent to the degree that motive and intent
> are intentionally absent.
Or you might say that the passive simply indicates that something is
getting done or got done; the agent isn't expressed unless by intention.
> As you can see, I'm doing nothing more than thinking/speculating "in
> English" what might be in the Greek. Sorry for this. Please advise
> me on how to go about thinking/speculating about a Greek construct.
Ah, but that's what I've been doing, off and on, for the past dozen
years or so. Traditional grammarians who concentrate on ancient Greek
haven't bothered to think very creatively or helpfully about these
matters.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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