[B-Greek] PETROS as a 1st century common noun?
Randall Buth
randallbuth at gmail.com
Sat Jun 6 11:45:03 EDT 2009
Here is a paste of the Josephus texts, though I don't have time to
transliterate.
the references are in English and should be visible.
Antiq. 4:45 ὁ ποτίμους ἡμῖν διεφθαρμένας πηγὰς ῥεῦσαι παρασκευάσας καὶ
τελέως ἀποροῦσιν ἐκ πετρῶν ἐλθεῖν ἡμῖν ποτὸν μηχανησάμενος ὁ τῶν γῆθεν
ἀπορουμένους εἰς τροφὴν διασώσας τοῖς ἀπὸ θαλάσσης ὁ καὶ ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ
τροφὴν καταπέμψας οὐ πρότερον ἱστορηθεῖσαν ὁ νόμων ἡμῖν ἐπίνοιαν
ὑποθέμενος καὶ διάταξιν πολιτείας
Antiq. 5:245 τοῦ δὲ σκιὰς εἶναι φαμένου τῶν πετρῶν πλησίον ἤδη
γινομένων τὸ ἀκριβὲς κατανοῶν οὐ σκιὰς ἔλεγε ταῦτ᾿ εἶναι λόχον δ᾿
ἀνδρῶν καὶ Ζάβουλος οὐ σὺ μέντοι φησίν Ἀβιμελέχῳ κακίαν ἐπεκάλεις τί
οὖν οὐκ ἐπιδεικνύεις τὸ τῆς ἀρετῆς μέγεθος εἰς μάχην αὐτῷ συμβαλών.
Antiq. 6:114 οἱ δὲ πολλοὶ μὴ γνωρίζοντες ἑαυτοὺς διὰ τὸ ἐκ πολλῶν
ἐθνῶν εἶναι πολεμίους ὑπονοοῦντες ἀλλήλους καὶ γὰρ εἴκαζον ἀναβῆναι
πρὸς αὐτοὺς τῶν Ἑβραίων οὐ δύο μόνους εἰς μάχην ἐτράποντο καὶ οἱ μὲν
αὐτῶν ἀπέθνησκον κτεινόμενοι τινὲς δὲ φεύγοντες κατὰ τῶν πετρῶν
ὠθούμενοι κατεκρημνίζοντο.
Antiq. 7:142 τοῦ δὲ βασιλέως ἀκούσαντος παρὰ τῶν ἀγγέλων ταῦτα καὶ
δυσφοροῦντος φάσκοντος ἁμαρτεῖν αὐτοὺς τῷ τείχει προσβαλόντας δέον
ὑπονόμοις καὶ μηχανήμασιν ἑλεῖν πειρᾶσθαι τὴν πόλιν καὶ ταῦτ᾿ ἔχοντας
παράδειγμα τὸν Γεδεῶνος υἱὸν Ἀβιμέλεχον ὃς ἐπεὶ τὸν ἐν Θήβαις πύργον
ἑλεῖν ἐβούλετο βίᾳ βληθεὶς ὑπὸ πρεσβύτιδος πέτρῳ κατέπεσε καὶ
ἀνδρειότατος ὢν διὰ τὸ δυσχερὲς τῆς ἐπιβολῆς αἰσχρῶς ἀπέθανεν
War 3:240 ¶ Οἱ δὲ περὶ τὸν Ἰώσηπον καίπερ ἐπ᾿ ἀλλήλοις πίπτοντες ὑπὸ
τῶν καταπελτικῶν καὶ τῶν πετροβόλων ὅμως οὐκ ἀπετρέποντο τοῦ τείχους
ἀλλὰ πυρὶ καὶ σιδήρῳ καὶ πέτροις τοὺς ἐπὶ τὰ γέρρα τὸν κριὸν
ἐπιβρίθοντας ἔβαλλον
War 3:243 ἥ τε οὖν τῶν ὀξυβελῶν καὶ καταπελτῶν βία πολλοὺς ἅμα
διήλαυνεν καὶ τῶν ὑπὸ τῆς μηχανῆς ἀφιεμένων πετρῶν ὁ ῥοῖζος ἐπάλξεις
τε ἀπέσυρεν καὶ γωνίας ἀπέθρυπτε πύργων
War 5:174 θαυμάσιον δὲ καὶ τῶν λίθων ἦν τὸ μέγεθος οὐ γὰρ ἐξ εἰκαίας
χερμάδος οὐδὲ φορητῶν ἀνθρώποις πετρῶν συνειστήκεσαν λευκὴ δὲ μάρμαρος
ἐτμήθη.
As is common with synonyms in a language, especially when cognate like
PETROS PETRA, there is a potential for interpenetration where either
word was used. In the case of 1Peter there is the additional problem
of coming from the LXX and being influenced by translation technique.
Maybe the first translator was thinking of a fixed piece of rocky
outcrop.
Randall
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 5:01 PM, George F Somsel<gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I had forgotten to check Josephus so I'm glad you did, but when I just now
> checked it I found only two occurances. Perhaps you could list the
> locations of all of the instances of the masc common noun πέτρος PETROS in
> Josephus. I only find
>
> Wars 3.240 (Loeb)
>
> Οἱ δὲ περὶ τὸν Ἰώσηπον καίπερ ἐπ ̓ ἀλλήλοις πίπτοντες
> 21† ὑπὸ τῶν καταπελτικῶν καὶ τῶν πετροβόλων, ὅμως οὐκ ἀπετρέποντο
> 22† τοῦ τείχους, ἀλλὰ πυρὶ καὶ σιδήρῳ καὶ πέτροις τοὺς ἐπὶ τὰ
> 23† γέρρα τὸν κριὸν ἐπιβρίθοντας ἔβαλλον.
>
> Josephus, F., & Niese, B. (1888). Flavii Iosephi opera recognovit Benedictvs
> Niese ... (Wars 3.240). Berolini: apvd Weidmannos.
>
> hOI DE PERI TON IWSHPON KAIPER EP' ALLHLOIS PIPTONTES
> hUPO TWN KATAPELTIKWN KAI TWN PETROBOLWN, hOMWS OUK APETREPONTO
> TOU TEIXOUS, ALLA PURI KAI SIDHRWi KAI PETROIS TOUS EPI TA
> GERRA TON KRION EPIBRIQONTAS EBALLON.
>
> Antiquities 7.142 (Loeb)
>
> τοῦ δὲ βασιλέως ἀκούσαντος
> 10† παρὰ τῶν ἀγγέλων ταῦτα καὶ δυσφοροῦντος φάσκοντος
> 11† ἁμαρτεῖν αὐτοὺς τῷ τείχει προσβαλόντας, δέον ὑπονόμοις καὶ
> μηχανήμασιν
> 12† ἑλεῖν πειρᾶσθαι τὴν πόλιν, καὶ ταῦτ ̓ ἔχοντας παράδειγμα
> 13† τὸν Γεδεῶνος υἱὸν Ἀβιμέλεχον, ὃς ἐπεὶ τὸν ἐν Θήβαις
> 14† πύργον ἑλεῖν ἐβούλετο βίᾳ, βληθεὶς ὑπὸ πρεσβύτιδος πέτρῳ κατέπεσε
> 15† καὶ ἀνδρειότατος ὢν διὰ τὸ δυσχερὲς τῆς ἐπιβολῆς αἰσχρῶς
> 16 ἀπέθανεν·
>
> Josephus, F., & Niese, B. (1888). Flavii Iosephi opera recognovit Benedictvs
> Niese ... (Ant 7.142). Berolini: apvd Weidmannos.
>
>
>
> TOU DE BASILEWS AKOUSANTOS
>
> PARA TWN AGGELWN TAUTA KAI DUSFOROUNTOS FASKONTOS
>
> hAMARTEIN AUTOUS TWi TEIXEI PROSBALONTAS, DEON hUPONOMOIS KAI MHXANHMASIN
>
> hELEIN PEIRASQAI THN POLIN, KAI TAUT' EXONTAS PARADEIGMA
>
> TON GEDEWNOS hUION ABIMELEXON, hOS EPEI TON EN QHBAIS
>
> PURGON hELEIN EBOULETO BIAi BLHQEIS hUPO PRESBUTIDOS PETRWi KATEPESE
>
> KAI ANDREOTATOS WN DIA TO DUSXERES THS EPIBOLHS AISXRWS
>
> APEQANEN;
>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
> ________________________________
> From: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com>
> To: B Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; Charles Johnson
> <cpj5117 at gmail.com>; George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2009 1:45:42 AM
> Subject: PETROS as a 1st century common noun?
>
> Johnson egrapse
>>After looking through the LXX and NT, I wonder what happened to the noun
> PETROS. It occurs in some in the LXX, and appears to be virtually synonymous
> with the more common PETRA. In the NT, it doesn't appear to be used at all
> except as the proper name Peter. It seems to have been replaced by LIQOS.
> Did PETROS pass out of existence as a common noun by the first century, and
> if so, should we understand the name Peter to be a masculinization of
> PETRA?>
>
> George mentioned 2xx in Philo.
> In addition, with 7 xx in Josephus and 21 in Plutarch one can only say
> that PETROS
> is less common than LIQOS. In any case, PETROS was still in use in Greek.
> In Plutarch a PETROS can be big enough to be lifted by two hands by a bald
> old man, though is still to be distinguished from 'bedrock, large rock'
> petra.
>
> More importantly, PETROS is attested as a name פטרוס a couple times in
> HEBREW
> literature referring to early (2nd century and 2-3 CE) people. Surely
> that is of interest,
> especially if you assume that the name was not borrowed from the Christians.
>
>
> blessings
> Randall
>
>
> --
> Randall Buth, PhD
> www.biblicalulpan.org
> randallbuth at gmail.com
> Biblical Language Center
> Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
>
>
--
Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicalulpan.org
randallbuth at gmail.com
Biblical Language Center
Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
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