[B-Greek] "Attic Reduplication"
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Jun 19 09:28:45 EDT 2009
On Jun 19, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
> Carl wrote:
>
> <Well, of course, there's ELHLUQA, which is not uncommon.>
>
> You bet. To recognize this as Attic reduplication you have to
> know that the root is ELEUQ. I guess you would call the
> EU-U ablaut. Are there other examples of EU becoming U,
> or EU becoming anything other than HU? Why isn't the form ELHLHUQA?
The root is in fact one that takes three forms in what is called
"Vowel gradation" or German "Ablaaut": ELEUQ (seen in the future
ELEUSOMAI), ELOUQA (seen in the older "Attic-reduplicated" -- but more
or less obsolete in NT Koine -- ELHLOUQA), and ELQ (syncopated from
ELUQ, seen in the aorist HLQON). There are, in fact, quite a few of
these verbs showing "Vowel Gradation" and generally displaying an E-
grade with an E-diphthong, an O-grade with an O-diphthong, and a "zero-
grade" with the simple form of the vowel Iota or Upsilon: PEIQW: PEIQ,
POIQ (perfect PEPOIQA), PIQ (aorist EPIQOMHN -- obsolete in NT Koine).
The better grammars will offer good accounts of Vowel gradataion/Ablaut.
>
> Carl: <They'll say, "If Attic Reduplication was good enough
> for St. Paul, it's good enough for me!">
>
> Carl's humor can be dry and subtle, so in case you missed it,
> he is revising here the old joke "If the King James Bible was good
> enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me." The earliest form of
> this joke is actually found in the Talmud: "If the Septuagint was good
> enough for Moses, it's good enough for me!"
Thanks for pointing that out; I'm sure that most B-Greekers have never
encountered that locution before; I really did not mean to be so
"subtle."
> Carl: <ATR notes ANADIPLWSIS and DIPLASMIASMOS.>
>
> Thanks. I missed these. Both are in LSJ and apparently
> DIPLASIASMOS is still used in Modern Greek. I guess the
> re in reduplication answers to the ANA in ANADIPLWSIS, but
> I'm still not sure what the force is. I guess you could ask the
> same about the re in "redouble your efforts."
We mortals are prone to redundant expressions: double negatives,
double superlatives (the bard: "This was the most unkindest cut of
all"). On the other hand, it's not unlikely that the ANA and "re" mean
"from the start' ("da capo") since ANA/"re" means "backwards" or "from
the beginning."
> But anyway, I have my new password: "Homeric diplasmiasmos."
Gotcha. Now we know that one too.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] "Attic Reduplication"
> To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:58 AM
>
>
> Of course, there's really no reason to learn all this arcane lore
> unless you're interested in linguistic archeology. I'm one of those
> nuts, of course (just got my Christidis, Hisory of Ancient Greek --
> all 1500+ pages of it -- yesterday; figured that if Amazon slashes
> 1/4 off the list-price, it's ALMOST a bargain. It is every bit as
> big as ATR's big grammar and weighs twice as much).
>
> If your primary objective is learning to read Greek, all that you
> really need to do is learn the principal parts of all irregular
> verbs, i.e., all verbs, the major tense-stems f which are
> unpredictable (e.g. ERCOMAI, ELEUSOMAI, HLQON, ELHLUQA; EGEIRW,
> EGERW, HGEIRA, EGRHGORA, EGHGERMAI, HGERQHN). You don't need to know
> that some people call ELHLUQA an instance of "Attic Reduplication,"
> or that some people call EGERW an instance of "Attic future."
>
> On Jun 17, 2009, at 12:23 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>
>> Top Ten Reasons to avoid the term “Attic Reduplication:”
>>
>> 10. It won’t help you get any dates.
>
> Ah -- but it WILL win you an entry into the B-Greek Archives.
>
>> 9. Attic Reduplication is actually more common in Homer than
>> in Attic.
>
> As are lots of other things, including Aeolic and Ionic dialect
> forms, hidden digammas, etc., etc. But then, those who don't read
> the Homeric corpus as literature tend to research it for the
> linguistic archaeology of the Greek language. If ;you do both, like
> me, you can call it "Homeric Reduplication."
>
>> 8. Why mess with a category for which there are only two N.T.
>> examples (HGAGON and AKHKOA?)
>
> Well, of course, there's ELHLUQA, which is not uncommon; and
> although the active of EGEIRW/EGEIROMAI, EGRHGORA is obsolete in NT
> Koine, the middle EGHGERMAI appears 11x.
> I was just curious enough to check on "Attic reduplication" in
> standard Koine reference works; BDF has a note in §68 and ATR in the
> big grammar deals with it, but linguistic archaeology was ATR's forte.
>
>> 7. People will say, “Why would I want two attics?”
>
> And if they do, you can advise them about the "Attic Future" -- as
> in, "The future of M/NW is MENW=; the future of ELPIZW is ELPIW=
> (transliteration: = following a vowel for circumflex on the vowel)."
>
>> 5. Why are we using a Latin word when perfectly good Greek
>> (DIDUMHSIS)
>
> ATR notes ANADIPLWSIS and DIPLASMIASMOS.
>
>> and English (doubling) words are available? For a fine discussion
>> of the damage caused by applying a Latin term to Greek, check out
>> the b-greek archives under “Top Ten Reasons to avoid the term
>> ‘Deponent.’”
>
> And you'll waste your effort searching for it, although I have
> certainly done my "ad nauseam" routine on avoidance of the term.
> It appears to me, moreever, that we use Latin-derived words for MOST
> designations of grammatical elements in Greek. "Aorist" is the only
> common Greek-derived term that comes readily to my mind. Or, you can
> follow Randall's lead and start talking about PARATATIKH KTL.
>
>> If we need a term for this madness we ought to call it “Ionic
>> Doubling.”
>
> Or you can call it "John," or you can call it "James," or you can
> call it "Dorothy" ...
> But I give you fair warning: try to change the name of any standard
> item of Greek grammar (especially of those that nobody has bothered
> to learn) and you'll run into a stone wall. They'll say, "If Attic
> Reduplication was good enough for St. Paul, it's good enough for me!"
>
>> 3. People will think you are talking about an Alternative Rock
>> band from the early 1990’s.
>
> I somewhat doubt this, but maybe somebody somewhere will do so.
>
>> 2. Because, to quote Christophe Rico (p. 288) in his terrific
>> new book “Polis: Parler Le Grec Ancien Comme Une Langue
>> Vivante,” our purpose in teaching Greek should be ̔ίνα
>> πυλῶσιν ἐισέλθωσιν εἰς τήν
>> πόλιν hINA PULWSIN EISELQWSIN EIS THN POLIN. Rico makes the
>> case that Greek is a living Polis, and we ought to enter it the way
>> ancient Greek citizens did, through the gates of living speech.
>> Nobody ever entered the Polis carrying the term “Attic
>> Reduplication” in their PHRA. And, no, the term is not found in
>> Rico’s book.
>
> Well, we know that you have done a needle-in-a-haystack search of
> the book. The French term for "far-fetched" is "recherché" -- what
> we'd ordinarily English as "researhed."
>
>> And the number one reason to avoid the term “Attic
>> Reduplication:”
>>
>> 1. It is my e-trade password.
>
> Well, now that you've made it public knowledge, you'll need to reset
> it with a new one. Howzabout: "Anadiplosis"? It sure ain't Latin! Or
> George has made you a fine suggestion: borrow some of the frogs of
> Hades from Aristophanes and have them cry out in unision,
> "BREKEKEKEX KOAX KOAX"
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