[B-Greek] Titus 1:10-13

rhutchin at aol.com rhutchin at aol.com
Mon Mar 9 20:04:13 EDT 2009


 I have placed additional comments after HH comments.? AOL seems to be double-spacing my messages as well as inserting question marks everywhere.? If someone knows why, please talk to me about it.? Another thing.? The lines wrap in this paragraph but below, when I comment after HH, line wrapping does not occur.? I just upgraded to OS10.4.11 and maybe that has something to do with it.

Roger Hutchinson


Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:34:48 -0600
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Titus 1:10-13
To: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <49AEF3F8.2050007 at earthlink.net>



Roger,
> I wonder if ELEGCE in v 13 may be taken in the positive sense (perhaps 
> in the sense of warn)and refer back to v 5 and those who are to be 
> ordained as PRESBUTEROUS.  

HH:  ELEGCE is not a positive word here. it is due to the fact that 
Cretans are liars, evil beasts, and lazy bellies. Therefore Titus is to 
reprove them severely. The word AUTOUS in verse 13 clearly refers back 
to AUTWN in verse 12, whose reference is to the Cretans. The pronoun 
precedes its referent.

RH: I agree that AUTOUS in verse 13 clearly refers back to AUTWN in
verse 12 but this seems to refer back to v10 and the ANUPOTAKTOI (who
are probably Cretans) but the focus seems to be on those whom Paul
has directed our attention in v10.  Paul seems to be telling Titus to
rebuke the ANUPOTAKTOI.  If Paul now means to direct the reader's 
attention to the Cretans, he has lost me in the argument he has crafted.

> Following the instructions for appointing the PRESBUTEROUS, Paul 
> begins v 10 with, EISIN GAR POLLOI ANUPOTAKTOI..., from which he 
> then concludes, DI hHN AITIAN..., in v 13.   

HH: DI hHN AITIAN in verse 13 refers back to the quotation in verse 12, 
and the fact that the Cretans are this way.

RH: DI hHN AITIAN refers immediately back to hH MARTURIA and then to 
something.  If DI hHN AITIAN  refers back to the description of the Cretans,
Why should we care?  How does that fit into the argument that Paul begins
in v10?  Is it possible that hH MARTURIA refers back to that which Paul
has said in v10-12 with v12 being and example of that which he describes 
in v10-11?

> Could we take AUTOUS in V 13 to refer back to the PRESBUTEROUS
> to be appointed per v 5-9? Does the greek text point, in any way, 
> to what Paul has in view without resorting to exegesis.   

HH: Of course, AUTOUS would include any elders that Titus would appoint, 
but he was to reprove the whole church.

RH: Because of a seeming (to me) slander by one of the ANUPOTAKTOI who are
subverting whole houses for financial gain? Are we to believe that there
is not even one Cretan who is not a liar, evil beast, and lazy belly.  
That description seems to be somewhat extreme but consistent with that
which the ANUPOTAKTOI might be saying and not necessarily true. 



 




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