[B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in latest BibSac

Timothy Mitchell taztimmitchell at hotmail.com
Thu May 7 01:18:32 EDT 2009


I think Dave has pointed out the key in interpreting a 'habitual' or even a 'future' meaning to the present tense. I think you are right Mitch that the present tense deals with an "in progress" event and that anything beyond that is determined by the context usage and not by any meaning found strictly imbedded in the present tense. I think that it is popular to see the present tense this way and I am not sure why. It appears that some grammars (I am only at an 'intermediate' level here so bear with me) are not as clear as they could be explaining this nuance. I think it a great temptation (which I have succumbed to at different times), to take and implant the contextual meaning of an event where the present tense is used, and to place that contextual understanding artificially into the meaning of the present tense alone, which used in another place and a different context (such as in 1 John). If we are to take the event described in 1 John 1:9 as 'habitual' (hOMOLOGEW), it would have to be determined from the context, and not from an imbedded meaning in the present tense.
 
That is the way I understand it now, but I am constantly evaluating and trying to move on and relearn if I have to.
Thanks for the great discussion
Tim
 

> From: DShumaker at bbc.edu
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; rngrogers at embarqmail.com
> Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 08:49:24 -0400
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in latest BibSac
> 
> If you are wondering about the present tense and its use in future time, how would you translate 1 John 2:18? It seems to me that the context demands a future understanding of erxetai. The reason this must be so is that there are temporal indicators like the vuv with the perfect verb that stands in contrast to erxetai. Thus, the most natural translation is "...antichrist is coming, and even now many antichrists have come." Thus, the most natural understanding of the erxetai is to refer to the future.
> 
> This would be no different than our English usage of the present tense for the future. Christians affirm that Jesus "is coming again." As far as I can tell, all Christians who affirm this believe in a future return of the King.
> 
> So, it seems to me that the present tense form can be used to describe future events--given the right temporal indicators in the context.
> 
> For whatever its worth,
> 
> Dave Shumaker
> Assistant Professor of Greek and Biblical Studies
> Baptist Bible College of Pennsylvania
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 5:50 AM
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; Rod Rogers
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in latest BibSac
> 
> 
> Rod:
> 
> I want to put in front of us my first question that is deemed "forbidden." It read as follows:
> 
> Does the Present Tense verb (hOMOLOGEW)
> really refer to some ongoing process? Does a
> Present Tense verb direct the readers'
> attention to the future, ever? I'm not sure I
> see how a Present Tense verb speaks to any
> issues beyond the "present."
> 
> My concern is whether or not a Present Tense ever refers to the FUTURE. This was what Ed Glasscock says in the BibSac article. My question is about the temporal nature of a Present Tense verb(al) and whether or not a Present Tense FORM has the capacity to include more than the 'present time.' My hope was to move the discussion to its Grammatical Aspect (the form of a verbal) and its temporal aspect.
> 
> I think if the Present Tense, by its "in progress" aspect, refers to some 'ongoing process (off into the future),' then we will need to say this about all Present Tense verbals. Wouldn't that alone create havoc as we translate the GNT. But, if we limit any Present Tense verb to a temporal "currently in progress," then we can limit its temporal aspect to the present time. I think the Future Tense verbs are used if the author wants to make a comment about the future. I just don't see how we can allow a Present Tense verb to have any reference to the future. This is what I'm trying to get feedback on.
> 
> Mitch Larramore
> Sugar Land, Texas
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 5/5/09, Rod Rogers <rngrogers at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at embarqmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in latest BibSac
> > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 9:45 PM
> > Mitch, in your first question you are
> > asking
> > a forbidden question on this list. Maybe that
> > is why no one has addressed your question.
> > You asked, "Does the Present Tense verb
> > (hOMOLOGEW) really refer to some ongoing
> > process?", What you are really asking,
> > couched in a grammatical question is, "Do I
> > need to continually ask for forgiveness for
> > my sins as a believer?", "Does hOMOLOGEW mean
> > continuously confess?". Grammar alone is in
> > sufficient to answer your question, I
> > believe. Context determines how hOMOLOGEW is
> > understood in this verse. I would suggest you
> > determine if this is a "PRE" or "POST"
> > salvation confession and if this verse is
> > directed toward the believer or unbeliever.
> > Until you determine what context 1 John 1:9
> > falls in you will be hopelessly guessing at
> > it's meaning.
> >
> > As to your second question, "Is that the
> > function of the Aorist Tense (in any mood) to
> > indicate 'actuality'?", I believe the answer
> > is no. I believe that the subjunctive mood is
> > used here to establish the potential of the
> > forgiveness of sins. That potential is only
> > met when one confesses his sins. The $64.00
> > question is, "When does this happen"? I'll
> > leave that up to you.
> >
> > rod rogers
> > Bargersville, In
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mitch Larramore
> > To: B Greek
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 2:11 AM
> > Subject: [B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in
> > latest BibSac
> >
> >
> >
> > Ed Glasscock, an unknown to me, has an
> > article in BibSac on 1 John 1.9 and I wanted
> > to ask a question or two on comments he
> > makes.
> >
> > "The present tense verb "confess" implies a
> > continual process of confessing, which
> > indicates the continual potential of sin in a
> > believer's life."
> >
> > Does the Present Tense verb (hOMOLOGEW)
> > really refer to some ongoing process? Does a
> > Present Tense verb direct the readers'
> > attention to the future, ever? I'm not sure I
> > see how a Present Tense verb speaks to any
> > issues beyond the "present."
> >
> > "The verb AFHi is an aorist subjunctive
> > verb..." [In a footnote he adds, "The aorist
> > simply asserts the actuality of the
> > event..."]
> >
> > Is that the function of the Aorist Tense (in
> > any mood) to indicate 'actuality'? I can see
> > an Indicative Mood denoting 'actuality,' but
> > not an Aorist verb, or a Subjunctive Mood
> > verbal, ever.
> >
> > Mitch Larramore
> > Sugar Land, Texas
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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