[B-Greek] Fwd: Mark 7:18-19
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sun Nov 1 05:34:12 EST 2009
This was intended for the list rather than for myself alone, but the
list-address was garbled. (CWC)
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Leonard Jayawardena <leonardj at live.com>
> Date: October 31, 2009 11:48:16 PM EDT
> To: cwconrad2 at mac.com
> Cc: greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>
>
> <50BC0F50-A074-4976-AB8C-CF675D827158 at mac.com>
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>
>
> Since the point I raised has not been answered, I will ask again.
>
> One list member thought that the phrase PAN TO EXWQEN EISPOREUOMENON
> was the subject for the neuter participle KAQARIZON. As I explained
> in a previous post, this results in a nonsensical interpretation. My
> question is whether the whole thought expressed in the words from
> PAN TO EXWQEN EISPOREUOMENON to EIS TON AFEDRWNA EKPOREUETAI can be
> considered (grammatically) as the antecedent (if that's the right
> word) for KAQARIZON. (Even then the resultant interpretation is
> still nonsensical, but I am trying figure out what the intended
> subject of the neuter participle might have been.)
>
>
> This leads to the following general question: In Greek does the
> subject (or antecedent) of a participle always have to be a
> particular word or phrase in the sentence? Cannot it be the idea or
> thought described by a group of words in another part of the
> sentence, particularly if the participle if neuter?
>
>
> Leonard Jayawardena
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>> From: cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 08:22:02 -0400
>> CC: leonardj at live.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> To: john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Oct 31, 2009, at 7:06 AM, John Sanders wrote:
>>
>>> My own thoughts on this passage is that êáèáñéæïí
>>> (KAQARIZON) is probably
>>> the original term used. Beginning with verse 18 there are two ïôé
>>> (OTI)
>>> clauses, the second beginning with verse 19 and ending with the word
>>> åê›ïñåõåôáé (EKPOREUETAI). The clause êáèáéæïí
>>> ›áíôá ôá âñùìáôá (KAUARIZON
>>> PANTA TA BRWMATA) is the concluding phrase summing up the food law.
>>> Beginning with verse 20 the conversation now emphasizes what is
>>> truly
>>> unclean. In other words, âñùìáôá (BRWMATA) is ïñèï
>>> (nominative) plural
>>> construing with a verb in the singular. I know that the participal
>>> is not a
>>> true verb in that sense, but I suspect it will perform accordingly
>>> in
>>> speech.
>>
>> Neuter nominative plural construing with a finite singular verb is
>> one
>> thing, but neuter plural noun construing with a neuter singular
>> participle is hardly conceivable, a solecism of the first order (cf.
>> BDF §136).
>>
>> This troublesome passage has been discussed before, and in checking
>> through the archives I find my own take on this passage set forth in
>> 1997 (http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/97-03/0886.html) and
>> also
>> in my "Brief Commentary on the Gospel of Mark" (http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/Mark/
>> ).. I think that KAQARIZWN with -W-, the nominative masculine form in
>> agreement with IHSOUS as the implicit subject as of LEGEI in verse
>> 18.
>> I won't reproduce that 1997 message here, as it was composed before
>> our current restricted parameters of list-discussion were formulated.
>> I would agree with George here, that KAQARIZWN the nominative
>> masculine participle is grammatically proper here, although its
>> position at such great removal from the main clause with which it
>> must
>> construe is extremely awkward.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Leonard Jayawardena>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Donald Cobb wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Quote
>>>>
>>>> If we retained the neutral KAQARIZON, I would find it extremely
>>>> difficult,
>>>> in terms of meaning, to connect it with PAN TO EKSWTHEN in v. 18 or
>>>> with the
>>>> understood subject of the verbs in v. 19: "For it enters... into
>>>> the bellly
>>>> and goes out into the latrine, purifying all foods". IMO, the
>>>> sentence thus
>>>> understood is nonsensical; can we say that the food that enters,
>>>> etc.,
>>>> pronounces all foods clean?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that turning into a question, as does NA, gives a
>>>> good
>>>> meaning, either.
>>>>
>>>> If we chose to retain the neutral, I think we would have to
>>>> understand the
>>>> subject as an unexpressed relative, hO, hOTI or something along
>>>> those lines,
>>>> and paraphrase: "This statement of Jesus pronounced all foods
>>>> pure."
>>>>
>>>> Unquote
>>>>
>>>> LJ: With regard to the past para., cannot the antecedent of the
>>>> participle
>>>> (if "antecedent" is the correct term) be taken as the whole thought
>>>> expressed by the words from PAN TO EXWQEN to EKPOREUETAI, so that
>>>> the idea
>>>> is that the biological process described by these words purifies
>>>> the food
>>>> consumed? (The meaning is still nonsensical, of course, as I have
>>>> explained
>>>> in my last post.)
>>>>
>>>> This would be analagous to the idea expressed by a clause/s
>>>> sometimes being
>>>> the antecedent of a relative pronoun in English, as in the sentence
>>>> "The
>>>> crowd went berserk and started smashing property, which compelled
>>>> the
>>>> authorities to send in the riot police."
>>>>
>>>> Is a similar phenomenon occurring in Mark 7:19 with the neuter
>>>> participle
>>>> KAQARIZON?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Leonard Jayawardena
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Sanders
>>> Suzhou, China
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>>
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