[B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in John 1:18-revised

Tom Moore tom at katabiblon.com
Wed Nov 4 19:43:48 EST 2009


John,

Note that the examples from Smyth I gave are also all in the same case (but in different declensions: OSOS is neu. nom. sg. 3rd decl. while AKRON is 2nd decl.; NHSOS is fem. nom. sg. 2nd decl. while ESCATH is 1st decl.)

Smyth also adds "The meaning of the predicative position [AKRON TO OROS] is also expressed by (TO) AKRON TOU OROUS...."

Tom

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: John Sanders <john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com>
>  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in John 1:18-revised
>  Sent: Nov 05 '09 00:21
>  
>  Tom Moore wrote:
>  "MONOGENHS (pred.) QEOS means God's only begotten?"
>>  MONOGENHS and QEOS are in the same case.�  Using the same sense and
>  terminology you used, it would need be, I think, "only begotten is God"
>  using the same word order as Greek.�  For my part, I would prefer the
>  attributive position becasue of the context.
>>  John Sanders
>  Suzhou, China
>  
>  
>  On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Tom Moore <[LINK:
>  mailto:tom at katabiblon.com] tom at katabiblon.com> wrote:
>  For some adjectives, the meaning does change. Smyth (1172) says this
>  occurs specifically with "adjectives of place":
>  
>  Attributive
>  ARKON -- TO AKRON OROS = the lofty mountain
>  MESH -- hH MESH AGORA = the central market
>  ESCATH -- hH ESCATH NHSOS = the farthest island
>  
>  Predicative
>  ARKON -- AKRON TO OROS = the top of the mountain
>  MESH -- MESH hH AGORA = the center of the market
>  ESCATH -- ESCATH hH NHSOS = the verge of the island
>  
>  MONOGENHS is not an adjective of place. However, could it still be
>  possible, given the author has already established context in John 1:14
>  with "MONOGENOUS PARA PATROS", that MONOGENHS (pred.) QEOS means God's
>  only begotten?
>  
>  
>  Regards,
>  Tom Moore
>  
>  > � -------Original Message-------
>  
>  > � From: Mark Lightman <[LINK: mailto:lightmanmark at yahoo.com]
>  lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>  > � Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
>  John 1:18-revised
>  
>  > � Sent: Nov 04 '09 22:43
>  >
>  > � Whether it is predicate or attributive, with or without the article,
>  is
>  > � irrelevant to the point I was making, which is, what difference in
>  > � meaning or anything else � is there if we consider MONOGENHS
>  > � an adjective or a noun in apposition?
>  >
>  > � Mark L
>  >
>  >
>  > � FWSFOROS MARKOS
>  >
>  
>  > � --- On WED, 11/4/09, TOM MOORE _<[LINK: mailto:TOM at KATABIBLON.COM]
>  TOM at KATABIBLON.COM>_ wrote:
>  >
>  > � From: Tom Moore <[LINK: mailto:tom at katabiblon.com] tom at katabiblon.com>
>  > � Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
>  John
>  > � 1:18-revised
>  > � To: "Blue Meeksbay" <[LINK: mailto:bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com]
>  bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>, "Mark Lightman"
>  > � <[LINK: mailto:lightmanmark at yahoo.com] lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>  > � Cc: [LINK: mailto:b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org] b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  > � Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 3:28 PM
>  >
>  >
>  > � I don't think we can say that MONOGENHS is not in the predicate
>  position,
>  > � can we?
>  >
>  > � Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the presence of an article
>  somewhere
>  > � in the expression MONOGENHS QEOS would fix MONOGENHS as either
>  attributive
>  > � or predicative, but in the absence of the article, it can be either.
>  >
>  > � MONOGENHS in the variant "hO MONOGENHS hUIOS" is attributive.
>  > � MONOGENHS in "MONOGENHS hO QEOS" would be predicative.
>  > � MONOGENHS in "MONOGENHS QEOS" is ambiguous.
>  >
>  > � Regards,
>  > � Tom Moore
>  >
>  >
>  > � > � -------Original Message-------
>  
>  
>  > � > � From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com] bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  > � > � Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS
>  in
>  > � John 1:18-revised
>  > � > � Sent: Nov 04 '09 20:18
>  > � >
>  > � > � Yes, that is a good point. � Thank you. I do not pretend to be an
>  expert
>  > � Greek scholar, so please tell me if I am wrong, but the difference
>  seems to
>  > � be that in John 1:18, MONOGENHS is not in the predicate position as
>  your
>  > � example shows. If � hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS was written � hO AGAQOS
>  BASILEUS, I
>  > � think the normal understanding would be "the good king" and not "the
>  good
>  > � one, who is king." However, if it was written as you have it, hO
>  BASILEUS
>  > � hO AGAQOS, with the definite article before BASILEUS and before the
>  > � adjective, I believe it could then be understood as "the king, the
>  good
>  > � one" Therefore, if John 1:18 read hO QEOS hO MONOGENHS one could
>  translate
>  > � it as God, the One and Only, or God, the Only Begotten," depending on
>  how
>  > � you understand MONOGENHS, but with it as � hO MONOGENHS QEOS, it seems
>  it
>  > � should be understood as a simple adjective. (Of course, if we
>  substitute
>  > � the variant UIOS I do not think anyone would have a problem seeing it
>  as a
>  > � simple
>  > � > � adjective modifying UIOS).
>  > � >
>  > � > � If we transfer that phrase into a similar verse structure, let us
>  > � pretend we have hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS hO WN EIS TON OIKON AUTOU. It
>  seems
>  > � that it should be translated as the “the good king who is in his
>  > � house,” or “the king, the good one who is in his house.” But if
>  we
>  > � had hO AGAQOS � BASILEUS � hO WN EIS TON OIKON AUTOU, it seems the
>  only way
>  > � it could be translated is “the good king who is in his house.” It
>  seems
>  > � it would stretch the parameters of grammar to say it should be
>  understood
>  > � as “the good one, who is king in his house,” although, I guess it
>  might
>  > � be possible, but it does not seem it would be the normal
>  understanding.
>  > � >
>  > � > � Yours Truly,
>  > � >
>  > � > � B.Harris
>  > � >
>  > � >
>  > � >
>  > � >
>  > � > �  ________________________________
>  > � > � From: Mark Lightman <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lightmanmark@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lightmanmark@yahoo.com]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:lightmanmark at yahoo.com] lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>  > � > � To: Eddie Mishoe <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:edmishoe at yahoo.com] edmishoe at yahoo.com>; Blue Meeksbay
>  <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com] bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  > � > � Cc: [LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  
>  > � [LINK: mailto:b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org] b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  > � > � Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 10:59:05 AM
>  > � > � Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS
>  in
>  > � John 1:18-revised
>  > � >
>  > � >
>  > � > � B. Harris � wrote:
>  > � >
>  > � > �  <Anyway, it still seems a bit artificial to turn QEOS
>  > � > �  into apposition with MONOGENHS. It � seems that
>  > � > �  the structure of the sentence would still demand MONOGENHS
>  > � > �  to be an adjective modifying QEOS. Am I still missing something?>
>  > � >
>  > � > � Are not all attributive adjectives really nouns in apposition?
>  > � > � hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS can always be understood as
>  > � > � "the king, the good one." � If fact, whether hO BASILEUS
>  > � > � is really a noun ("the king") or an adjective ("the royal one")
>  > � > � or a verb ("the one who rules") depends more on your
>  > � > � starting point than on anything in the Greek text. � Same,
>  > � > � I think, with MONOGENHS.
>  > � >
>  > � > � Mark L
>  > � >
>  > � >
>  > � > � FWSFOROS � MARKOS
>  > � >
>  > � > � --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com] bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  > � >
>  > � >
>  > � > � >From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  
>  > � [LINK: mailto:bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com] bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  > � > � >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to
>  MONOGENHS in
>  > � John 1:18-revised
>  > � > � >To: "Eddie Mishoe" <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:edmishoe at yahoo.com] edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>  > � > � >Cc: [LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  
>  
>  > � [LINK: mailto:b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org] b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  > � > � >Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, � 8:17 AM
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >It seems what Dr. Wallace is saying, is that the reason for
>  turning hO
>  > � WN into a relative clause connected with God, “who is God,” or
>  “the
>  > � one being God,” are the examples in Rev.1:4,8;4:8; 11:16; 17:5. But
>  those
>  > � verses seem to support the idea that QEOS should not be in apposition.
>  For
>  > � example, the one example in Rev. 4:8 where the relative clause refers
>  back
>  > � to Lord God Almighty, “God” and “Almighty” are not anarthrous
>  like
>  > � the word “God” in John 1:18. Perhaps, if QEOS was not anarthrous
>  hO WN
>  > � could refer back to God, but since it is anarthrous it seems hO WN is
>  > � completed by the following prepositional phrase. This seems to be the
>  > � normal pattern followed by John. It seems in all cases when John
>  introduces
>  > � a relative clause by the root hO WN and a prepositional phrase is
>  present,
>  > � the clause is completed by the prepositional phrase (Jn.3:13, 6:46,
>  9:40,
>  > � 11:31). Thus it � seems the relative clause in Jn. 1:18 is completed
>  by the
>  > � > � >prepositional phrase, “who is in the bosom of the Father,”
>  and
>  > � should not be thought to refer back to QEOS – “who is God.”
>  > � > � >This same structure also seems to be used by other writers (II
>  cor.
>  > � 11:31 col. 4:11 I thess 2:14). It seems that in the New Testament hO
>  WN of
>  > � the relative clause always is connected to the prepositional phrase
>  when a
>  > � prepositional phrase is present. Perhaps, the one exception would be
>  Rom.
>  > � 7:13, which could read “the law, which is of sin in my members.”
>  > � > � >As for the examples of substantive adjectives followed by a noun,
>  it
>  > � seems to me, unless I am not seeing something, the only one that could
>  > � clearly apply to John 1:18 would be Gal. 3:9. In that case it seems
>  one
>  > � could translated John 1:18 as “the one and only, God” or “the
>  Only
>  > � Begotten, God,” depending on your understanding of monogenes, and
>  still
>  > � keep the relative clause with the prepositional phrase, but it still
>  seems
>  > � the simpler translation would to view it as a simple adjective. I
>  wonder if
>  > � the variant “Son” was the accepted reading, those who believe God
>  is in
>  > � apposition to MONOGENES would believe Son should be in apposition to
>  > � MONOGENHS from the same grammatical point of view?
>  > � > � >Anyway, it still seems a bit artificial to turn QEOS into
>  apposition
>  > � with MONOGENHS. It � seems that the structure of the sentence would
>  still
>  > � demand MONOGENHS to be an adjective modifying QEOS. Am I still missing
>  > � something? � Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
>  > � > � >Sincerely,
>  > � > � >B. Harris
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >________________________________
>  > � > � >From: Eddie Mishoe <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:edmishoe at yahoo.com] edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>  > � > � >To: [LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org] b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org;
>  Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  
>  
>  > � [LINK: mailto:bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com] bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  > � > � >Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:43:30 PM
>  > � > � >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to
>  MONOGENHS in
>  > � John 1:18-revised
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >B. Harris:
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >This may be of help to you on this issue. It is the
>  translator's note
>  > � in the NET Bible at this passage. Dr. Wallace, the author of this
>  note, has
>  > � written an article on this subject also where he interacts more with
>  Dr.
>  > � Ehrman's position. In short, the answer to your main question is,
>  "Yes,
>  > � QEOS stands in apposition to MONGENHS.
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh"
>  qeo",
>  > � “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo
>  monogenh"
>  > � Juio", “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one
>  letter
>  > � would have differentiated the readings in the mss , since both words
>  would
>  > � have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally,
>  there
>  > � are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether
>  they
>  > � read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss , especially the
>  later ones
>  > � (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός.
>  Ì75
>  > � א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous
>  > � μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. The
>  articular
>  > � θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous
>  > � θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading.
>  The
>  > � external � evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς
>  θεός.
>  > � Internally, although
>  > � > � >υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is
>  much
>  > � more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the
>  other
>  > � reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who
>  found
>  > � υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός.
>  Scribes
>  > � would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since
>  > � μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological
>  title
>  > � (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more
>  > � difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most
>  sense
>  > � to see the word θεόςas in apposition to μονογενής, and
>  the
>  > � participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in
>  effect
>  > � three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The
>  > � Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly
>  impossible
>  > � and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed
>  immediately
>  > � by a noun that agrees in
>  > � > � >gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when
>  is
>  > � an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a
>  noun
>  > � of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First,
>  as
>  > � Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And
>  since
>  > � it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one
>  might
>  > � well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective
>  > � substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is
>  already
>  > � moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf.
>  Luke
>  > � 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL
>  881
>  > � s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a
>  > � substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has
>  complete
>  > � concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The
>  � modern
>  > � translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV.
>  Several
>  > � things should be noted:
>  > � > � >μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only
>  son,”
>  > � “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore,
>  θεός
>  > � is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does
>  in
>  > � 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo" hn Jo logo") means
>  “the
>  > � Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of
>  deity.”
>  > � Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but
>  even
>  > � more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this
>  together
>  > � leads to the translation given in the text.
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >Anything discussed further on this may get into theology rather
>  than
>  > � syntax.
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >Eddie Mishoe
>  > � > � >Pastor
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Blue Meeksbay � <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  > � [LINK: mailto:bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com] bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >
>  > � > � >>From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  
>  > � [LINK: mailto:bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com] bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  > � > � >>Subject: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS
>  in
>  > � John 1:18-revised
>  > � > � >>To: [LINK:
>  > � [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  
>  
>  > � [LINK: mailto:b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org] b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  > � > � >>Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 5:24 PM
>  > � > � >>
>  > � > � >>
>  > � > � >>I have noticed some believe QEOS should be seen in apposition to
>  > � MONOGENHS in John 1:18. This seems to me to be an unusual grammatical
>  > � construction.
>  > � > � >>If QEOS was to be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in this verse,
>  > � would not it have normally been used in a relative clause or, perhaps,
>  have
>  > � been preceded by a pronoun, as “Saviour” is preceded by
>  “our,” in
>  > � “God our Saviour” in Jude 1:25? Then John 1:18 would read “the
>  One
>  > � and Only, our God,” or the "Only Begotten, our God," depending on
>  one's
>  > � understanding. � Or if MONOGENHS is supposed to be viewed as a
>  substantive,
>  > � would not it have been normal to write QEOS with the definite article
>  as is
>  > � commonly done in the LXX (e.g. Lord God – KURIOSO QEOS)? � If John
>  wants
>  > � us to view QEOS in apposition to MONOGENHS, it seems he is using an
>  unusual
>  > � construction. It seems the simpler translation would be to understand
>  > � MONOGENHS as an adjective modifying “QEOS,” so that it would read,
>  "the
>  > � One and Only God," or the "Only Begotten God," according to one's
>  > � preference. Are � there any thoughts as to this issue, or are there
>  any
>  > � other examples
>  > � > � >>by any other writers who use a construction like this, but in a
>  verse
>  > � with less ambiguity?
>  > � > � >>Yours Truly,
>  > � > � >>B. Harris
>  > � > � >>P.S. Please excuse my earlier email. I did not fully understand
>  the
>  > � protocols. I hope this one is done correctly.
>  > � > � >>
>  > � > � >>
>  > � > � >>
>  > � > � >>---
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>  B-Greek home page: [LINK: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreekB-Greek]
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>  John Sanders
>  Suzhou, China



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