[B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS inJohn 1:18-revised
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Thu Nov 5 15:01:53 EST 2009
I am not sure if this portion has survived in Greek, but we do have the Latin which can be found at http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0130-0202__Iraeneus__Contra_Haereses_Libri_Quinque_(MPG_007a_0433_1118)__GM.pdf.html Yes, it seems the original rendering in Greek would have been hO MONOGENHS LOGOS QUEU. I do not know what else it could have been considering the context, and, indeed, the only common sense meaning in English, I think, would be as you said, "the only begotten Word of God." He definitely is connecting MONOGENHS with "generation" and not with "kind" or "class," Therefore "one and only" would not fit.
Therefore, at least, in the second century, Greek speaking people were using MONOGENHS with the sense of "only born," or "only begotten," and not with the sense of "one of a kind." In fact, the only non-biblical writer I know that could approximate MONOGENHS with the sense of "kind" would be Clement (late 1st century).
Clement (A.D. 30-100) wrote from the church in Rome. He spoke of a legendary bird called the Phoenix, which was “uniquely-begotten.”
The Greek text reads touto monogenev upapxon The phrase could be translated thus: “This one, being “only-begotten,” lives 500 years.” Or it could be translated, “This one, being “only begotten,” lives 500 years.” He goes on to speak of this sole or unique begetting and the word he uses in the Greek to describe this is GENNATAI.
In addition, when one reads Ovid, (the Roman writer from whom Clement, more than likely, first learned about this bird), one finds the context of the passage filled with the idea of begotteness and the idea of being born. More than likely, it was this unique begetting that Clement was referring to when he used the word “MONOGENHS.”
The legendary bird was supposed to fly to a nest after 500 years, at which time it would die. At its death a worm was “begotten” from its flesh which would grow feathers and wings and become the new Phoenix bird for another 500 years, (thus the term only-begotten). [1] In other words, because only one Phoenix lived and was born at a time, that is until another 500 years, it, indeed, was an “only begotten.” No more were born until the next generation arrived.
"Only begotten" fits the text better when considering the context and the source of the story from Ovid, than does a translation of “one of a kind.” Although, to be fair this is the only occasion where I believe one could argue for “one of kind.”
Best regards,
B.Harris
________________________________
[1] See Lightfoot, J.B., Apostolic Fathers, Greek Text, Vol. 1, (Hendrickson, Peabody MA 1989) pg. 87
________________________________
From: Octavio Rodriguez <octaviors at gmail.com>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 9:07:31 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS inJohn 1:18-revised
Dear B. Harris:
Is the Irenaeus' portion you quoted in Latin or in Greek?.
So, if the portion you mention survived in Greek, then Irenaeus
would have rendered : hO MONOGENHS LOGOS QEOU, doesn't it?.
Thus, it would be in favor to "the only-begotten Word of God" rendering.
Unless we want to translate it as "the only one who is the Word of God", but How
could we connect it with the preceding Ireneus' discussion about begetting? .
Regards
Octavio
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
Carl Conrad wrote:
>This appears to derive from the Latin vulgate version, "Filium suum
>unigenitum," so that it was evidently Jerome who associated the GEN-
>of the Greek word with the Latin verb "gigno, gignere, genui,
>genitus." That is to say, Jerome appears to be the translator of the
>Greek who drew the link between the GEN- of MONOGENHS and GENNAW.
>
>There is evidence to suggest otherwise. The Vetus Latina routinely translates MONOGENHS by unigenitus. There is misinformation on the web concerning this, but in texts, which Alford called the ancient Latin versions before Jerome, out of a total 41 recorded occurrences of the Greek word monogenes, 29 render it unigenitus and 12 render it unicus. The Vetus Latina Project is doing a terrific work in regard to these texts. You can go online, http://www.vetuslatina.org/, and peruse their website. And at this address you can download the Old Latin Texts in question and confirm the use of unigenitus in the texts. http://arts-itsee.bham.ac.uk/itseeweb/iohannes/vetuslatina/index.html)
>Also, Irenaeus understood MONOGENHS with the sense of begotteness long before Jerome. He wrote the following in the second century,
>
>“If any one, therefore says to us, 'How then was the Son produced by the Father?' we reply to him, that no man understands that production, or generation, or calling, or revelation, or by whatever name one many describe His generation, which is in fact altogether indescribable. Neither...angels, nor archangels, nor principalities, nor powers [possess this knowledge], but the Father only who begat, and the Son who was begotten...the Only-Begotten Word of God.”[1]
>
>Best regards,
>B.Harris
>
>________________________________
>
>[1] Roberts, Alexander; Donaldson, James, ed., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI 1985), pg. 401
>________________________________
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>To: Vasileios Tsialas <tsialas78 at hotmail.com>
>Cc: B-Greek Lists <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 5:52:12 AM
>
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS inJohn 1:18-revised
>
>
>On Nov 5, 2009, at 6:05 AM, Vasileios Tsialas wrote:
>
>>
>>> From: cwconrad2 at mac.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 05:12:54 -0500
>>> To: leonardj at live.com
>>> CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS
>>> inJohn 1:18-revised
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 5, 2009, at 1:10 AM, Leonard Jayawardena wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Tom Moore wrote:> "MONOGENHS (pred.) QEOS means God's only
>>>>> begotten?">> MONOGENHS and QEOS are in the same case. Using the
>>>>> same sense and> terminology you used, it would need be, I think,
>>>>> "only begotten is> God"> using the same word order as Greek. For my
>>>>> part, I would prefer the> attributive position becasue of the
>>>>> context.
>>>>
>>>> Except that MONOGENHS does not mean "only-begotten" but rater "one
>>>> of a kind," "unique."
>>>>
>>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LJ: Is not GENHS in MONOGENHS cognate with GENNAW (used in v. 1:13).
>>>> Why cannot it mean "only-begotton"?
>>>
>>> Only insofar as GENNAW "generate/beget" derives from the root GEN-
>>> "come-to-be" or "kind/kindred"
>>> -GENHS derives directly from GEN-
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> As far as I remember, according to TDNT the usual meanning of
>> μονογενής MONOGENHSis "only-beggoten" and that the meanning
>> "unique" is not quite often.
>
>
>The fact of the matter is that MONOGENHS is consatrued almost always
>with hUIOS, once with QUGATHR in the GNT.
>> At the begining of the article, it ιs explaind how
>> μονογενής literally means "of sole descent", "without
>> brothers and sisters".The stem γεν GEN is related with
>> γένεσις GENESIS, which some times is used interchangablywith
>> γέννησις GENNHSIS, because the basic concept is the same, the
>> origin of existance.I hope I remember well.After many hours from
>> now, I will be home to check the article again.Tsialas
>> VasileiosAthens Greece>
>
>This etymology seems a bit fanciful to me -- fanciful, rather than
>wrong. I think we are aware, most of us at this point, how little
>bearing etymology may have upon usage and understood meanings.
>
>GENESIS is the action noun derived from the verb GI(G)NOMAI (root GEN/
>GON/GN). GENNAW is not the equivalent of GINOMAI; GENNAW uses the
>present stem infix -NA- (Smyth §523g); GENNAW is an active (causative)
>verb; GINOMAI is a middle verb.
>
>As John Sanders notes, "only begotten" is an English word and enters
>into the English Biblical tradition, apparently in Wycliffe's
>translation o f John 3:16 "his oon bigotten sone"; Tyndale has "his
>only son"; Douay-Rheims and KJV both have "his only begotten son."
>This appears to derive from the Latin vulgate version, "Filium suum
>unigenitum," so that it was evidently Jerome who associated the GEN-
>of the Greek word with the Latin verb "gigno, gignere, genui,
>genitus." That is to say, Jerome appears to be the translator of the
>Greek who drew the link between the GEN- of MONOGENHS and GENNAW.
>
>When MONOGENHS as an adjective is attributive to a noun such as hUIOS
>or QUGATHR, it is reasonable enough to understand it to indicate a
>child brought into existence by natural generation, although I wonder
>what adjective would be applied to an adoptive "only" child.If I
>recall aright, Raymon Brown suggested in "Birth of the Messiah" that
>Jesus was Joseph's adoptive son and that Hebrew genealogical descent
>could include adoptive figures in the line, so that it is appropriate
>to account for Jesus' descent from David in these terms.
>
>I guess what bothers me most about "beget" is that it is has such an
>archaic ring to it; certainly it's what we call "Biblish." The
>etymology of the English word, which is only used (or used to be used,
>in another century) of producing a child by natural reproduction, is
>also of some interest; my dictionary gives: "Old English begietan
>[get, obtain by effort] (see be- , get )."
>
>Certainly the Greek text is easier to understand than it is to put
>into English, I note that NET has:
>"No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in
>closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known"
>and Peterson's Message has:
>"No one has ever seen God, not so much as a glimpse. This one-of-a-
>kind God-Expression, who exists at the very heart of the Father, has
>made him plain as day."
>
>The more one looks at John 1:18, the more one wonders whether the
>Greek was ever intended for conversion into English. At any rate, a
>"woodenly-literal" version of this verse is not very helpful to one
>trying to understand the usage of the key words in it.
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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