[B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrase with conjunctions- rule or coincidence?

Blue Meeksbay bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Sat Nov 7 11:06:51 EST 2009


Excellent! Thank you very much. I think you are right, there is no general pattern. I can see how  EIS OIKODOMHN TOU SWMATOS TOU CRISTOU could be seen as an additional aspect. In fact, it fits in nicely when compared with the other verses you listed. I am not sure, however, if it is necessarily in apposition, although grammatically I agree that could be possible, and I would have no problem if it was. But I am wondering if Paul is speaking of a circle of continuity, if you will, where the apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers have the responsibility of "equipping the saints" into two things, first ..."work of [the] ministry" (which would replenish the pool of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for the next generation, and secondly for the "other" saints, (who are not called into the ministry), into "the building up of the body of Christ."  This could only be understood, from a first century perspective. We have lost
 this aspect of church gathering that was common in first century. This would be the mutual edification of the saints to each other that was spoken about in I Cor. 14 - "the building up of the body of Christ," done by those who may have had such gifts enumerated (in I Cor. 14 and Rom. 12), but who were not necessarily a part of the "apostles, prophets, etc. I was thinking this might help explain the use of OIKODOMHN in both passages (Eph> 4:12; I Cor. 14:26). Also, perhaps, it could refer to equipping them into good works which are edifying or a building up (cf. Titus 3:14).
 
In any case, I think you demonstrated there certainly is no rule. 
 
Best regards,B.Harris


________________________________
From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:53:29 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrase with conjunctions- rule or coincidence?

----- Original Message ----- From: Blue Meeksbay
To: Iver Larsen
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: 7. november 2009 16:06
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrase with conjunctions- rule or coincidence?

You are right, point three does not fit. Bethpage and Bethany are definitely two different things. What is interesting, though, is EIS BHQFAGH KAI BHQANIAN is preceded by EIS IEROUSALHM without a conjunction, so that follows point number one - two different things. I wish I had software that could search all possible occurrences in order to see if the pattern holds for the first two points, as the third point has already been disproved.

I was wondering about this because some think Paul,  in Eph. 4:12, is referring to two identical things and other assume he is referring to two different things, and  I noticed this possible pattern of prepositional phrases with/without a conjunction and wondered if it could throw any light on a what he meant.

Thanks,
B.Harris
------------------------------

Iver:

I don't think any of your proposed rules work. Whether the nouns are the same or similar depends more on what they mean and the context than grammar rules.

In Eph 4:12 we have:
PROS TON KATARTISMON TWN hAGIWN EIS ERGON DIAKONIAS EIS OIKODOMHN TOU SWMATOS TOU CRISTOU.

I would say they are neither two identical things nor two different things. Rather, the first is general and the second adds some aspect or further clarification to the first. If they were identical, why have two? The lack of conjunction makes the second a kind of apposition to the first.

Other examples are:

Mat 8:28 KAI ELQONTES AUTOU EIS TO PERAN EIS THN CWRAN TWN GADARHNWN

to the other side (more specifically) to the land of the Gadarenes

Mat 21:1: KAI HLQON EIS BHQFAGH EIS TO OROS TWN ELAIWN
To Bethphage, to the Mountain of Olives (further explanation)

Mat 28:16 EPOREUQHSAN EIS THN GALILAIAN EIS TO OROS hOU ETAXATO AUTOIS
to Galilee (more specifically) to the mountain he had arranged with them

Mrk 9:43 APELQEIN EIS THN GEENNAN EIS TO PUR TO ASBESTON

etc.

Iver Larsen


----- Original Message ----- From: "Blue Meeksbay" <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 6. november 2009 22:14
Subject: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrase with conjunctions- rule or coincidence?


> I have noticed when two prepositional phrases containing EIS are written back to back “without” any connecting conjunction it generally refers to two different things (e.g. Eph. 4:12; Col. 2:2). When they are written back to back “with” a conjunction, it seems it refers to two different but related items (Eph. 5:32; II Thess. 3:5). And when EIS is used as one prepositional phrase with two objects connected by a conjunction, it refers to one thing understood through two aspects (Phil 1:1; I Tim. 6:9).
> 
> Is this just a coincidence, or does some rule apply to this structure?
> 
> Sincerely,
> B.Harris


      


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