[B-Greek] middle voice - still looking for more answers
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sun Nov 22 06:16:39 EST 2009
On Nov 21, 2009, at 8:40 PM, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
> Mark, (and Elizabeth, see below)
>
> Thanks for this reply. My contention is that all Middle verbs in the NT are intentionally used to express the nuance of the Middle. I think you can argue that some old Interjections or idiomatic uses could be found to argue against my position. However, I have not run up against a Middle verb that I would say is Active in meaning (which is a periphrasis for it being a 'deponent').
>
> Both the Middle and Active have the Subject acting, so you can see why they are often times difficult to distinguish. But in every instance of the Middle, there is some "self-propulsion" (an old word of Carl's that creates a good image in my mind) involved, the Subject is acting or performing something. I think Carl likes the expression "agentive" (with what we use to call deponents) where the Subject initiates or performs an action.
>
> Elizabeth, are you in agreement with what I've written? If not, please feel free to correct me. I certainly would defer to someone of your scholastic level. Any input you can offer would be greatly appreciated (Carl has to be getting tired of my OFFLIST questions to him!)
I'll cite the answer that I gave Eddie off-list-- assuming his permission --, for what it's worth.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Date: November 17, 2009 6:58:15 AM EST
> To: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: OFFLIST Question: Middle Voice for Active
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
>
>> Carl,
>>
>> I got no takers on my request for any word that is Middle in form but Active in meaning. Would you say that there are no examples in Greek of this?
>
> The difficulty in answering a question like this lies in how we understand the word "active." Neither the professional/academic linguists nor the traditional grammarians are consistent in how they use this word: to refer to: (a) verbs whose subjects/agents initiate and perform an ACTION, and (b) TRANSITIVE verbs that have a direct object/complement. In sense (a) verbs like QNHiSKW and KTAOMAI and POREUOMAI would all be termed "active"; but in sense (b) only KTAOMAI is "active." I personally think that it's misleading even to call KTAOMAI "active." I would prefer to use the term "agentive," which I have seen in more recent literature -- Rijksbaron may have created it -- and use it for verbs whose subject/agent initiates and performs an action.
>
> Lexicographers seem to use the term "active" in sense (a) when they refer to "middle verbs with active sense." I think that is their way of avoiding the ugly word, "deponent," which some linguists and some grammarians persist in using. It would be much more informative, I think, to refer to those verbs as "agentive middle" verbs.
>
>> I seem to recall you mentioning some of the common words, such as GINOMAI, and saying something about them, but I don't remember what you said. Is GINOMAI or any other widely used words Active in meaning to your knowledge?
>
> I've said many different things about GINOMAI, one of them being that, since it has no active form, i.e., since it ONLY appears in middle-passive forms, we ought to refer to it (as to all verbs that regularly or even most commonly appear in middle-passive forms, as "middle verbs." GINOMAI itself is most commonly used in an intransitive sense but at times it can have passive force and will even be used with a hUPO + genitive agent construction or be implicitly passive, as in the LP petition, GENHQHTW SQW TO QELHMA SOU (where GENHQHTW means no more or no less than GENESQW0.
>
>> BTW, do you think people on this list don't respond to some posts because they don't know the answer, or they are just readers and not responders. ...
>
> The simple fact of the matter is (I think) that everybody is aware that there simply is no adequate "doctrine" of Greek verbal voice and that terminology and understanding of the phenomena are much too vague to be grasped with sufficient clarity to talk/write intelligently or intelligibly about it.
My apologies to any out there who thinks that there really does exist an adequate "doctrine" of Greek verbal voice, and my earnest request that they come forward with it.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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