[B-Greek] middle voice - still looking for more answers

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Nov 26 10:10:06 EST 2009


The categories of common middle verbs includes, according to Suzanne Kemmer, "translational motion: fly, flee, go away, run, hurry, go away from, climb, arrive, leave, come, go (Gr.PETOMAI, ERCOMAI, POREUOMAI, Fr. s'en aller, Lat. se removere). I don't have Rutger Allen's categories ready to hand, but I think he would say that not all verbs of motion are marked as middle, but quite a few are. BAINW properly means "step, stride"; the future of BAINW, like that of several other verbs with active presents, is middle: BHSOMAI.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (ret)

 
On Wednesday, November 25, 2009, at 04:44PM, "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Okay, that's another pretty good point about the prehistory of the
>verb.  But in this case, would it not be misleading to think about
>the law producing for itself as a product God's wrath.  
> 
>I guess I don't understand this whole "subject reference" business.
>You are not suggesting, are you, that ανθρωπος ερχεται
> ANQROPOS ERCETAI emphasizes
>the subject more than ανθρωπος βαινει ANQROPOS BAINEI?
> I thought there are other
>ways to do this in Greek (AUTOS, EGW.)  How could you ever prove
>that a subject is NOT emphasized? 
>
>
>Mark L
>
>
>FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
>--- On Wed, 11/25/09, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] middle voice - still looking for more answers
>To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>, "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>, "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>, "Eddie Mishoe" <edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 1:21 PM
>
>
>But ἐργάζομαι ERGAZOMAI is related to *ἔργω ERGW which appears in classical literature as ἕρδω ERDW which itself means "to do."  Ἐργάζομαι seems to have a subject reference in that the one performing the work PRODUCES something.  It is used of sculptors and husbandry where the worker brings forth a product.  
> george
>gfsomsel 
>
>
>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>defend the truth till death.
>
>
>- Jan Hus
>_________ 
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>To: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>; Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 12:41:23 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] middle voice - still looking for more answers
>
>Eddie egrapse:
> 
> <However, I have not run up against a Middle verb
> that I would say is Active in meaning (which is a
> periphrasis for it being a 'deponent').>
> 
>Hi, again, Eddie:
> 
>Romans 4:15 ὁ γαρ νόμος οργὴν κατεργάζεται.
>  hO GAR NOMOS ORGHN KATERGAZETAI.
>  “The law produces (God’s) wrath.”  Here the
> verb seems to be purely active, with no special
> emphasis on the subject or a feeling that the
> subject participates in the object in any special way.
>  The law seems a rather disinterested subject.
>  It is PEOPLE who produce wrath for themselves
> from God through the law.  Paul could just as
> easily have written FEREI or POIEI here.
>  The Modern Greek has ο νόμος δημιουργε͂ι οργὴν.
>  None of the English translations suggest anything
> other than a pure active, though Amplified has 
>“results in wrath.”
> 
>I accepted that LUMAINOMAI in Acts 8:3
> is a bad example not because I am convinced
> that there is any special emphasis on the subject
> or that it has any more middle force than PORQEW,
> which is used elsewhere of what Paul does to the
> Church, but because George showed that LUMAINOMAI
> had a prehistory where it was middle “Paul was washing
> himself off from the filth of the Church.” (not that
>I think this is what in means in this passage)  I don’t think
> KATAERGAZOMAI ever had a middle force.  I’m not
> a fan of the term deponent, but I think that these
> MAI SAI TAI endings must have been at times heard by Greeks
> without thinking of anything middle.  If there is one
> thing we know about Greek, especially Koine,
> it is that distinctions are lost.
> 
>Mark L
>
>
>FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
>--- On Mon, 11/23/09, Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] middle voice - still looking for more answers
>To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>, "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>, "Eddie Mishoe" <edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 11:53 AM
>
>
>Eddie egrapse:
> 
> <However, I have not run up against a Middle verb
> that I would say is Active in meaning (which is a
> periphrasis for it being a 'deponent').>
> 
>What about Acts 8:3?  Σαυλος δε ελυμαινετο την
>εκκλησιαν.  SAULOS DE ELUMAINETO THN
>ELYSIAN.  Where is the middle force?
> 
>Romans 13:2  οι δε ανθεστηκοτες ἑαυτοις κριμα
>λημψονται.  hOI DE ANQESTHKOTES hEAUTOIS
>KRIMA LHMYONTAI.  Does not the fact that
>that LAMBANW is made reflexive with hEAUTOIS show
>that it is considered active/deponent in the
>future?
> 
>
>Mark L
>
>Φωσφορος
>FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
>--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] middle voice - still looking for more answers
>To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>, "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>, "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 6:40 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Mark, (and Elizabeth, see below)
>
>Thanks for this reply. My contention is that all Middle verbs in the NT are intentionally used to express the nuance of the Middle. I think you can argue that some old Interjections or idiomatic uses could be found to argue against my position. However, I have not run up against a Middle verb that I would say is Active in meaning (which is a periphrasis for it being a 'deponent'). 
>
>Both the Middle and Active have the Subject acting, so you can see why they are often times difficult to distinguish. But in every instance of the Middle, there is some "self-propulsion" (an old word of Carl's that creates a good image in my mind) involved, the Subject is acting or performing something.  I think Carl likes the expression "agentive" (with what we use to call deponents) where the Subject initiates or performs an action. 
>
>Elizabeth, are you in agreement with what I've written? If not, please feel free to correct me. I certainly would defer to someone of your scholastic level. Any input you can offer would be greatly appreciated (Carl has to be getting tired of my OFFLIST questions to him!)
>
>Eddie Mishoe
>
>
>
>
>
>      
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