[B-Greek] Philo EIS KOINON SULLOGON (cf. SULLOGOS thread from 2008)

Steven Cox stevencox_backonbgreek at yahoo.co.uk
Wed Sep 9 04:22:50 EDT 2009


A very minor question, a long way from SUNERCOMAI in 1Co11:17,18:

Why would Yonge render EIS KOINON SULLOGON as "in sacred assembly" rather than "in common assembly" in Philo Vita Contemplativa / Contemplative Life 30
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book34.html

30 .. SUNERCONTAI KAQAPER EIS KOINON SULLOGON

I can't find KOINOS SULLOGOS on Perseus but had the idea that this is a Platonic term for the civil assembly (?), so is Yonge deliberately steering away from that civil use in translating it as "sacred"? For instance it's Yonge's judgment that in context for English audiences "sacred" better reflects that this is a Sabbath service? Is this right? Unless KOINOS SULLOGOS was sacred in civil usage too? 

LSJ entry http://old.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2398217

Pasted below : SULLOGOS thread from 2008, then the 1Co11:17 TOUTO DE thread below that.
Any insights appreciated.
S.


Bryant J. Williams III 
    bjwvmw at com-pair.net
       

    Thu Jun 12 14:15:13 EDT 2008
    Previous message: [B-Greek] Perseus Synonyms? (EKKLHSIA and SULLOGOS?)
Next message: [B-Greek] Perseus Synonyms? (EKKLHSIA and SULLOGOS?)
 Messages sorted by: 
              [ date ]
              [ thread ]
              [ subject ]
              [ author ]
         
      

Dear Craig,

I would suggest you see the following article in NIDNTT, Vol. 1, pp. 291-307,
Church, Synagogue, EKKLHSIA, by L. Coenen. This is especially true of the use of
EKKLHSIA and SUNAGWGH and their translations of QAHAL and )EDAH in the LXX. It
is interesting that the Hebrew )EDAH is never translated by EKKLHSIA, but by
SUNAGWGH. EKKLHSIA and SUNAGWGH translate QAHAL.

In the NT, with the exception of James 2:2 (SUNAGWGH), EKKLHSIA is always used
of the meetings and community gatherings of the followers of Jesus. This is
especially significant since the early followers were Jews. EKKLHSIA is also
used of the riotous crowd assembled in Ephesus (Acts 19:39-40). With the
exception of Mt 16:18; 18:17, it is never used in the Gospels.

En Xristwi,

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "newsgroupstuff" <newsgroupstuff at gmail.com>
To: "'newsgroupstuff'" <newsgroupstuff at gmail.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Perseus Synonyms? (EKKLHSIA and SULLOGOS?)


> Further to my post below, perhaps I should explain a little of the background
to my question. I am looking at the use of EKKLHSIA in the NT. It was suggested
to me that if the Christians just wanted to use a Greek term to mean "meeting"
or "assembly", then they could have used SULLOGOS instead. But they never did
(at least in the NT), suggesting that EKKLHSIA becomes more of technical than a
generic term, or else that it is distinctly better for describing the Christian
meeting than SULLOGOS would be.
>
> In the Perseus it notes that EKKLHSIA regularly appears with SULLOGOS. I'm
guessing for the same reason the LSJ entries suggest that EKKLHSIA is more
specific than SULLOGOS, based on Th.2.22, Pl.Grg.456b, etc, and so that SULLOGOS
would perhaps not be used to describe the official EKKLHSIA. But if you were the
first Christians, and wanted to pick a word to describe the new Christian
gatherings, could SULLOGOS have been used as readily as EKKLHSIA?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Craig Johnson
> Brisbane, Australia
> Blog: http://bloggledegook.blogspot.com/
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: newsgroupstuff [mailto:newsgroupstuff at gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 7:49 PM
> > To: 'b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org'
> > Subject: Perseus Synonyms? (EKKLHSIA and SULLOGOS?)
> >
> >
> > Hi.
> >
> > I'm just wondering if someone can help explain something I
> > came across.
> >
> > I wanted to compare two words: EKKLHSIA and SULLOGOS. I
> > expected them to be synonyms, but if I look up either on
> > Perseus, neither comes up for the other as a synonym. Is
> > there something very different about the meanings of these
> > two words? Does anyone know how the computer of Perseus
> > determines synonyms, and why these don't come up as synonymns?
> >
> > Here are the LSJ definitions from Perseus, and from this
> > there seems some overlap in the terms:
> >
> > ἐκκλησί-α, ἡ, (ἔκκλητος) assembly duly summoned, less general
> > than σύλλογος, Th.2.22, Pl.Grg.456b, etc. ; applied to the
> > Homeric Assemblies, Arist.Pol.1285a11 ; to the Samian
> > Assembly, Hdt.3.142 ; to the Spartan, Th.1.87 ; to the
> > meeting of the Amphictyons at Delphi, Aeschin.3.124 ; at
> > Athens, ἐ. κύριαι, opp. σύγκλητοι, Arist.Ath.43.4 ; κυρία ἐ.,
> > at Amorgos, IG12(7).237.46 ; ἐ. συναγείρειν, συνάγειν,
> > συλλέγειν, ἀθροίζειν, call an assembly, Hdt.3.142, Th.2.60,
> > 8.97, X.HG1.6.8 ; ἐ. ποιεῖν Ar.Eq.746, Th.1.139,al. ; ἐ.
> > ποιεῖν τινί Ar.Ach.169 ; διδόναι τινί Plb.4.34.6 ; ἐ.
> > γίγνεται an assembly is held, Th.6.8 ; καταστάσης ἐ. Id.1.31
> > ; ἦν ἐ. τοῖς στρατηγοῖς And.1.2 ; ἐ. διαλύειν, ἀναστῆσαι,
> > dissolve it, Th.8.69 (Pass.),X.HG2.4.42 ; ἀφιέναι Plu.TG16 ;
> > ἐ. ἀνεβλήθη was adjourned, Th.5.45 ; ἐ. περί τινος Ar. Av.1030, etc.
> >
> > σύλλογ-ος, ὁ, assembly, concourse, meeting of persons,
> > whether legal or riotous, ς. ἐγίνετο Hdt.8.74; Ἀχαιῶν ς.,
> > name of a play by Sophocles; ξ. γυναικοπληθεῖς E.Alc.951; ς.
> > στρατεύματος Id.IA514, cf. 825; ἐν θεοῖς ς. σοῦ πέρι ἔσται
> > Id.Hel.878; ς. ποιῆσαι Th.1.67, 4.114 (cf. ἐκκλησία); ς.
> > ποιέεσθαι Hdt.7.8 init., 8.24, cf. E.Heracl.335; ς. διαλύειν
> > Hdt.7.10.δ'; of the people, διαλύεσθαι ἐκ τοῦ ς. Id.3.73; ς.
> > σχολαστικοί Arist.Pol.1313b3; συμπόσια καὶ ἄλλοι ς. Phld.Mus.
> > p.110K.; ὁ ς. ὁ Ἁλικαρνασσέων SIG45.1 (Halic., v B.C.), cf.
> > 278.3 (Priene, iv B.C.), al.; at Athens, of any special
> > public meeting or assembly, opp. the common ἐκκλησία,
> > Th.2.22, Pl.Lg.764a; ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ ἄλλῳ ς. παντί, ὅστις ἂν
> > πολιτικὸς ς. γένηται Id.Grg.452e, cf. X.An.5.7.2, D.19.122;
> > freq. of a muster of forces, X.Cyr.6.2.11, al.; so ς. νεῶν
> > And.3.38; ς. θεραπηΐης a medical consultation, Hp. Praec.13.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > --
> > Craig Johnson
> > Brisbane, Australia
> > Blog: http://bloggledegook.blogspot.com/
> >
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>




--- On Wed, 9/9/09, Steven Cox <stevencox_backonbgreek at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: Steven Cox <stevencox_backonbgreek at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Co11:17 TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org, "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, 9 September, 2009, 6:25 AM

Thanks George
Perhaps it is awkwardness in English that leads EPAINW OTI to be rendered as "commend [you] because" rather than "praise [you] that" "commend [you] that"

Philo Vita 30 was SUNERCONTAI KAQAPER EIS KOINON SULLOGON.

Philo's SUNERCONTAI confirms to me that the sequence of 7x SUNERCOMAI starting in 1Co11:17,18 through 1Co14 mark out a new formal meeting context, and confirm what everyone on BGreek has said about TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN being cataphoric.

So I guess case closed. 
Many thanks everyone.
Steven.



--- On Tue, 8/9/09, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Co11:17 TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN
To: "Steven Cox" <stevencox_backonbgreek at yahoo.co.uk>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Tuesday, 8 September, 2009, 6:51 AM

Τοῦτο δὲ παραγγέλλων οὐκ ἐπαινῶ ὅτι οὐκ εἰς τὸ κρεῖσσον ἀλλὰ εἰς τὸ ἧσσον συνέρχεσθε.
TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN OUK EPAINW hOTI OUK EIS TO KREISSON ALLA EIS TO hHSSON SUNERCESQE

Note that Paul here uses Τοῦτο  [TOUTO] the nearer demonstrative and continues with ὅτι [hOTI].  Ὅτι [hOTI] has been regularly translated as "because" which I think might well be the wrong choice here.  It could as well be considered as #1 in BDAG "a marker of indirect discourse" and rendered "that."  It would then be the content of his discommendation and thus reference what follows.


 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: Steven Cox <stevencox_backonbgreek at yahoo.co.uk>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 10:02:23 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] 1Co11:17 TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN

Steve and others

Many thanks for continuing points on this. 



It would have been helpful if Paul had had the equivalent of L'Académie
française or Duden's Die deutsche Rechtschreibung to guide him in
anaphoric and kataphoric usage. Or if Greek had nice correspondence to
ceci and cela, which the French are supposed to observe. [side note,
this week's cover story in Le Point was about spelling in France, can
anyone imagine Time, Newsweek or Britain's The Spectator having a
feature article on orthography?] 



Overall I get the message that Leon Morris was depending too much on
previous commentators, and it seems that BGreek agrees that the modern
versions are reasonably secure in inserting (sic) the term "the
following" to provide clarity?



11:17 In the following directives I have no praise for you (NIV & TNIV)

11:17 Now in the following instructions I do not commend you (NRSV)

11:17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you (ESV)



I have to say I would feel more secure with a nice chunky 'rule'. But
the unanimity of NIV TNIV NRSV ESV Elberfelder etc. does have one thing
going for it, in my mind, and that is the duplication of 17
SUNERCESQE... 18 SUNERCOMENON and these 2x uses leading into a sequence
of 5x more repetitions of the same "gather together" verb as a common
denominating contextualizer of the new setting for 11:17-14:38.



I was wondering whether SUNERCOMAI had some specific associations in
Jewish worship that would distinguish informal house meetings,
prophesying as Philip's daughters and Job's daughters (T.Job) from the
Diaspora sabbath meeting : "on the seventh day they all *come together*
as if to meet in a sacred assembly" (Philo Vita 30, I need to locate
Greek and check that). 



I may be wrong (someone correct me) but it seems that TOUTO DE
PARAGGELLWN is introducing a localization, a narrowing of context in
1Co11:17-33, introducing a time place context of a formal meeting,
which is lacking in the prophecy section 1Co11:2-16. Whether this is
simply coincidence - because the emphasis in 1Co11:2-16 is on
verbs/actions "pray" "prophesy", or whether it is intended, because
"pray" "prophesy" has a broader context, prophesying both EN OIKW and
EN EKKLHSIA, but the communion related comments can only be EN
EKKLHSIA, I don't know. I'd welcome comments on that point.



The second point is on the usage of PARAGGELLW. I don't really want to wade through the full 543 uses on Perseus.

http://old.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2377838

but it seems, from the few I've clicked on, that PARAGGELLW, given such
examples as Euripedes Suppliants, doesn't have to directly state a
specific command, "I command that X do Y", but can be quite general,
intransitive, open-ended, which supports again NIV TNIV ESV NRSV
agreement: 



17 "This DE recommending," => "In the following directives" (reasonable translation)





A further, probably obvious, comment: This use of TOUTO here to me is
reminiscent of Asian languages (specifically Japanese and Chinese)
where the nominalization of entire sentences and even paragraphs is
common. I don't recall ever really being trained to look for it so much
in European languages, but don't we use "Having said *that*" to
nominalize a previous discourse as "that" and "Now let me say *this*",
to tee up a new subject, without any specific anchor point in the new
subject being the *this*. 



So I'm thinking that TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN here has a very broad
catchment, which would make it not just cataphoric to any fixed next
phrase, but long-cataphoric (I know the idea of short-cataphoric and
long-cataphoric will cause cringes) to encompass all the new
SUNERCOMAI-contexted instructions.



Now let's find Philo. I wish he was on Perseus.

S.







--- On Sat, 5/9/09, Steve Runge <srunge at logos.com> wrote:

From: Steve Runge <srunge at logos.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Co11:17 TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN
To: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>, "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, 5 September, 2009, 12:27 PM

Elizabeth,

1
Cor 11:2 EPAINW DE hUMAS hOTI PANTA MOU MEMNHSQE KAI, KAQWS PAREDWKA
hUMIN, TAS PARADOSEIS KATECETE. 3 QELW DE hUMAS EIDENAI hOTI PANTOS
ANDROS hH KEFALH hO CRISTOS ESTIN, KEFALH DE GUNAIKOS hO ANHR, KEFALH
DE TOU CRISTOU hO QEOS. 

1 Cor 11:17 TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN OUK EPAINW hOTI OUK EIS TO KREISSON ALLA EIS TO hHSSON SUNERCESQE.  

The
generativists studying information structure have found an interesting
thing: contrast is not so much part of the construction, but the
context. This is not unlike the issue of "senses" of the genitive, most
of which are derived from the context than the morph. In this context,
I think that TOUTO receives marked focus primarily because of its
cataphoric function, not so much based on contrast with the preceding
context. There is indeed a change in topic, but it is not a sharp one.

If
we look as what is accomplished by v. 2, it is not the introduction of
a new topic. The issue of headship is not raised until v. 3 with what
Porter calls a catenative construction. I understand EPAINW in v. 2 as
a meta-comment, what the form critics would call a disclosure formula.
Paul essentially affirms them for doing something that they are not
really doing well. He has taught them a number of things, and they have
drifted away from them. This is the basic problem with the Eucharist
discussion introduced in v. 17 ff. Verse 2 is a set up for v. 17. He
praises them for something that he is going to call them to sharpen,
viz. holding fast to what he has taught rather than allowing practices
to be so heavily influenced by their culture.

The contrast in
the passage lies primarily in the positive-negative relationship
between the two occurrences of EPAINW. I do not see the headship
discussion relating particularly closely with "coming together." Verses
2 and 17a seem to be operating at a macro level, in that they could be
removed from the discourse without significantly harming the core
arguments that follow. If Paul had simply begun QELW DE hUMAS
EIDENAI... Or OUK EIS TO KREISSON ALLA EIS TO hHSSON SUNERCESQE..., the
comments that follow would be completely understandable. What would
suffer is the transition between the pericopes. Removing these
introductions would make for very abrupt transitions. Praising someone
for something that you are going to correct them about couches things
quite differently than beginning by telling them they are doing a lousy
job and then elaborating on exactly how.

I think that the
majority of contrast present in the context resides in the macro-level
introductions, not so much in some inherent contrast of the content
that follows. He has good news and bad news. The two do not really
relate to one another, but good and bad do contrast.

HTH, back to historical presents.

Steve Runge


-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Kline
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 2:19 PM
To: greek B-Greek
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Co11:17 TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN


1Cor. 11:17 Τοῦτο δὲ παραγγέλλων οὐκ
ἐπαινῶ ὅτι οὐκ εἰς τὸ κρεῖσσον
ἀλλὰ εἰς τὸ ἧσσον συνέρχεσθε.
.
1COR. 11:17 TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN OUK EPAINW hOTI OUK EIS TO KREISSON ALLA EIS TO hHSSON SUNERCESQE.
.
The
clause initial TOUTO ...  OUK EPAINW hOTI ... suggests contrastive
focus which raises the question where in the preceding discourse was he
EPAINWV his addressees or more specifically to what point in the
discourse should we look to draw the contrast?
.
Elizabeth Kline




---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek



      
---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek







      
---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek



      


More information about the B-Greek mailing list