[B-Greek] Luke 17: 20-21
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sat Sep 19 10:35:25 EDT 2009
I find an instance of ἐντός [ENTOS] in Josephus with a pl noun
Ἄχαβος καὶ τὴν ἄλλην στρατιὰν ἐντὸς τῶν τειχῶν.
AXABOS KAI THN ALLHN STRATIAN ENTOS TWN TEXWN.
Josephus, F., & Niese, B. (1888). Flavii Iosephi opera recognovit Benedictvs Niese ... (Ant 8.376). Berolini: apvd Weidmannos.
It is a tad unlikely that Josephus is stating that the soldiers were sealed up inside a wall but were rather within the limits of the walls.
There are quite a number of instances of ἐντός [ENTOS] with a pl noun or pron in Philo, but this would take some time to sift. I think the Josephus example is instructive regarding its usage.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
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----- Original Message ----
From: "rhutchin at aol.com" <rhutchin at aol.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:04:53 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 17: 20-21
I am still involved in a discussion on Luke 17.
Can anyone tell me how often we find the combination? ENTOS + plural? appearing in Greek writings (hopefully, involving a group of people) outside the NT about the same time as the NT period and how it would/might be translated?
Roger Hutchinson
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: rhutchin at aol.com
Cc: iver_larsen at sil.org; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, Sep 17, 2009 9:22 am
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 17: 20-21
On Sep 17, 2009, at 8:38 AM, rhutchin at aol.com wrote:?
?
>?
> Apparently, this verse has engendered more discussion over the years > that I was aware of. I don't think a grammatical analysis resolves > the issue or, at least, not to everyone's satisfaction. A lot of > people argue against your position.?
>?
> I was referred to a comment that Dr. Conrad made back in 1998 on > this when he wrote, "I just did a check of the Perseus LSJ on ENTOS > and find it regularly?
> used with a partitive genitive of the boundaries within which X is?
> located, including in particular TEIXEWN (calculations,) HUMWN (our?
> Lucan passage), MAQHMATWN (learning), GRAMMATWN (literature). Most of?
> these are not instances of a group of persons, so that I don't know?
> that it would be the normal way to say "among", but to be very precise?
> about the sense of a partitive genitive, I'd think it is not so?
> terribly different from epi + genitive = "somewhere within the?
> boundaries of X" -- so ENTOS + genitive = "at some point within the?
> boundaries of X."?
>?
> Roger Hutchinson?
?
Perhaps I was more perceptive 11 years ago ; -) -- Gee, I'm glad we have the archives!?
Iver did call attention to a very important and commonly-ignored aspect of this much-disputed text: that hUMWN, the object of ENTOS, is plural and therefore must refer to a grouping of persons. I'm not sure that makes the Jesus-saying less cryptic or less open to a broad range of interpretations dependent upon the assumptions underlying approaches to it, but the fact that it refers to a group of persons does make some of the common interpretations less plausible.?
?
And, for what it's worth, I agree with your judgment, "I don't think a grammatical analysis resolves the issue or, at least, not to everyone's satisfaction." But I also agree with Iver that "GAR never introduces a contrast." I think the notion that it does is a dead horse that needs no more flailing.?
?
Carl W. Conrad?
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)?
?
?
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