[B-Greek] How precise is Greek? ( was Matthew 22:34)
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Sun Dec 12 11:51:09 EST 2010
Hi Mark,
I tend to agree with you and Oun, although no one can deny that many times
simple location is indicated, and may, indeed, be so in this verse.
Nevertheless, it does seem there is one translation, the NLT, that might have
also been trying to also bring out the idea of purpose.
Matthew 22:34But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees
with his reply, they met together *to question him again.*
What is interesting is that apparently, sometimes, the underlying Hebrew word in
the LXX for EPI TO AUTO is yachad, and yachad sometimes seems to carry an
additional sense of purpose. For example, consider the following verse.
Psalm 133:1How wonderful and pleasant it is when brothers live together in
harmony! (NLT)
Psalm 133:1Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell
together in unity! (NASB)
This verse is translated by the LXX as follows:
PSALM 132:1 WiDH TWN ANABAQMWN TWi DAUID IDOU DH TI KALON H TI TERPNON ALL᾽ H TO
KATOIKEIN ADELFOUS EPI TO AUTO
Here are a few more examples where it seems to me EPI TO AUTO can carry the idea
of *for the same thing,* or *for the same purpose* –
JOSHUA 11:5 KAI SUNHLQON PANTES hOI BASILEIS hOUTOI KAI PAREGENONTO EPI TO AUTO
KAI PARENEBALON EPI TOU hUDATOS MARRWN POLEMHSAI TON ISRAHL
And all these kings came together and arrived united in purpose, and they
encamped at the waters of Maron to war against Israel.
NEHEMIAH 4:2 (4:8) KAI SUNHCQHSAN PANTES EPI TO AUTO ELQEIN PARATAXASQAI EN
IEROUSALHM
And all of them assembled together for the same thing, to come, to do battle in
Jerusalem.
However, after all that being said, that is not the actual reason I am writing.
As seen by the difference of opinion concerning how EPI TO AUTO should be
rendered in English, I was wondering what your opinion would be of the
following statement (generally speaking)? “Greek is less ambiguous than Hebrew,
however, Latin is less ambiguous than Greek and English is less ambiguous than
them all.”
May you and all have a blessed Lord's Day,
Blue Harris
P.S. Is Denver playing? : > )
________________________________
From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>; Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>; Biblical
Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 5:02:13 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 22:34
Iver wrote
<Nor is there any hint of purpose in the idiom...>
Hi, Iver,
I think what happened is that Oun's suggestion "for the same purpose" reminded
me of Blue Harris' recent post
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-September/054419.html
and that post rubbed me the right way.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________
From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>; Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 11:41:57 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 22:34
----- Original Message ----- From: "Oun Kwon" <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
To: "Biblical Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 12. december 2010 01:07
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 22:34
> I wonder why I should buy an opinion of BDAG rather than FWSFOROS (his
> is more enlightening)? Isn't it enough to see the text just say
> 'When they gather together'? What does the idiomatic phrase in a
> locative sense says more than what the text says?
That is exactly what an idiom means. You have an expression with several words,
literally "at the same (place)", but an idiom is to be taken as a whole, and as
such it simply means "together". There is no need to look for a neuter
antecedent of AUTO, since it is a fixed expression that always uses AUTO. Nor is
there any hint of purpose in the idiom. Every translation correctly translates
the idiom as "together".
> In this particular example in 1Co 7:5, many English translations
> actually omit it, while a few seems take it as 'purpose' when
> paraphrasing (as in NET '.... resume your relationship').
>
> Oun Kwon.
I cannot see that any translation takes the idiom as suggesting purpose, nor
that many English versions omit it. Which ones are you referring to? CEV makes
it implicit in "unless you agree not to have sex for a little while". Since it
is for a little while, it is understood that after a period devoted to a special
time of prayer without sex, then they should again have sex together. Bible
translators normally want to use euphemisms for this activity, since the Bible
is being read publicly in all sorts of situations. GNV: "marital relations" and
NET: "your relationship". NET's "resume" translates PALIN HTE. In my opinion,
the NET is unnecessarily broad. Obviously, when husband and wife are together in
this sense, they have to be at the same place, but using the literal "be
together again" should be clear enough in the context. Meaning is not only
derived from words in isolation, but from words that occur EPI TO AUTO.
Iver Larsen
>
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>>
>> > <No, I don't think the notion of purpose would be expressed with EPI +
>> > accusative. I think that Iver is right and the lexicographical
>> > evidence is sufficiently convincing.>
>> >
>> > Hi, Carl,
>> >
>> > You guys are probably right, but cf. 1 Cor 7:5, where there seems to be a >
>>hint
>> > of purpose. That is the picture I have in my mind, the completion of a >
>>delayed
>> > event that is at least as telic as it is locative.
>>
>> I think not. I think that BDAG has it right, s.v. EPI
>> " 1. marker of location or surface, answering the question ‘where?’ on, upon,
>>near ...
>> c. w. acc., answering the question ‘where?’
>> β. ἐ. τὸ αὐτό [EPI TO AUTO] at the same place, together ... "
>> -- and 1 Cor 7:5 is cited specifically for this sense.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>>
> ---
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