[B-Greek] Fwd: Ambiguity
Dr. Don Wilkins
drdwilkins at verizon.net
Fri Feb 5 18:29:21 EST 2010
I meant to send this to the list as well as to George, and just hit
the wrong button.
Begin forwarded message:
> The combination מעל does not *always* mean "above" or "on top of"
> as opposed to "from above". KB gives "downwards from" as a
> translation under 'AL (על, section 8) which is equivalent to "from
> above," and in regard to Ex. 25:22 and parallel passages the rabbis
> emphasized the preposition "from" in their declaration that the
> voice did not come "from" just anywhere in the sanctuary, but
> *from* above the ark (Midrash on Numbers). My point of disagreement
> with you was not whether the one term could be either "from above"
> or "again," but with your conclusion that the discourse evidently
> was a composition of the early church, by which I assume you mean
> not the work of the apostle (correct me if I mistook your meaning).
> And for my own part, I did mean that Nick ignored the term "from
> above." Indeed, I think Nick was being disingenuous, and that Jesus
> as much as said that Nick, "the teacher of Israel," knew better.
> But yes, I agree with you that the term never seems to mean "again."
>
> Don Wilkins
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 2:02 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> Hebrew and Aramaic does have a combination of prepositions which
>> indicate a position above, but it always means "above" or "on top
>> of." To my knowledge there is no ONE term which would be
>> understood as either "above" OR "again." Unless you read it to
>> indicate that Nick simply ignored the clear meaning, you must
>> concede that Nick simply didn't understand. I know of no instance
>> where מעל could be understood as "again." I read it under the
>> presumption that he was not being disingenuous. While מעל may
>> mean "above", it is clear that it cannot be confused in regard to
>> its meaning. The entire discourse, besides making a very
>> important point, is one which has me laughing behind my hand. I
>> think it was supposed to be read thus.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>> From: Dr. Don Wilkins <drdwilkins at verizon.net>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "Daniel, Robert S" <rob.daniel at hp.com>; Carl Conrad
>> <cwconrad2 at mac.com>; B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 2:26:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ambiguity
>>
>> Not so, George! Hebew and Aramaic both have me'al (מעל), a
>> combination of the two prepositions min ("from") and al ("on,
>> over, above"). This is seen for example in Ex. 25:22 and Ps. 50:4,
>> where it refers to God's domain. As far as I can tell the combo
>> never means "again," so Nicodemus was just trying to ignore it by
>> pointing to the absurdity (from his viewpoint) of anyone going
>> through the birth process again, as if to say that one cannot be
>> born again regardless of the source of birth. Reductio ad absurdum
>> was a common element of rabbinic rhetoric. Jesus responds very
>> properly by pointing out that Nick should know better, if that is
>> what he is really thinking. This is because the rabbis taught that
>> a proselyte is a brand new creature, as if he had been reborn and
>> all of his previous relationships never happened. Of course this
>> does not mean that Jesus and Nick could not have been speaking
>> Greek on this occasion, but it seems unlikely, and more plausible
>> that John was simply translating what was said.
>>
>> Don Wilkins
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:36 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>>> Not that I can think of offhand. It would thus appear that this
>>> discourse was a composition of the early church.
>>>
>>> george
>>> gfsomsel
>>>
>>>
>>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>> defend the truth till death.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Jan Hus
>>> _________
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Daniel, Robert S" <rob.daniel at hp.com>
>>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; Dr. Don Wilkins
>>> <drdwilkins at verizon.net>; Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> Cc: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 12:24:12 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Ambiguity
>>>
>>> Something I've wondered about this conversation for a long time
>>> is whether we can conclude that this conversation must have taken
>>> place in Greek -- is there an equivalent word, with the same
>>> double meaning, as ANWQEN in either Aramaic or Hebrew?
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-
>>> bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
>>> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 12:19 PM
>>> To: Dr. Don Wilkins; Carl Conrad
>>> Cc: B-Greek
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ambiguity
>>>
>>> One of my favorite ambiguities is the discourse between Jesus and
>>> Nicodemus in Jn 3
>>>
>>> 3ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν
>>> αὐτῷ· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή
>>> τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται
>>> ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ
>>> 3 APEKRIQH IHSOUS KAI EIPEN AUTWi, "AMHN, AMHN, LEGW SOI, EAN MH
>>> TIS GENNHQHi ANWQEN, OU DUNATAI IDEIN THN BASILEIAN TOU QEOU."
>>>
>>> followed by Nick's response
>>> 4λέγει πρὸς αὐτὸν [ὁ]Νικόδημος·
>>> πῶς δύναται ἄνθρωπος γεννηθῆναι
>>> γέρων ὤν; μὴ δύναται εἰς τὴν
>>> κοιλίαν τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ
>>> δεύτερον εἰσελθεῖν καὶ γεννηθῆναι;
>>>
>>> 4 LEGEI PROS AUTON [hO] NIKODHMOS, "PWS DUNATAI ANQRWPOS
>>> GENNHQHNAI GERW WN? MH DUNATAI EIS THN KOILIAN THS MHTROS AUTOU
>>> DEUTERON EISELQEIN KAI GENNHQHNAI?"
>>>
>>> Obviously Nick means "born again", but this has been put into the
>>> mouth of Jesus in translations. What Jesus seems to have
>>> intended was "born from above." This is indicated by Jesus'
>>> response to Nick
>>> 10ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν
>>> αὐτῷ· σὺ εἶ ὁ διδάσκαλος τοῦ
>>> Ἰσραὴλ καὶ ταῦτα οὐ γινώσκεις;
>>> 10 APEKRIQH IHSOUS KAI EIPEN AUTWi, "SU EI hO DIDASKALOS TOU
>>> ISRAEL KAI TAUTA OU GINWSKEIS?"
>>>
>>> The two are obviously talking past one another, but "born again"
>>> has become engrained in the language of the Church.
>>>
>>> george
>>> gfsomsel
>>>
>>>
>>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>> defend the truth till death.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Jan Hus
>>> _________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Dr. Don Wilkins <drdwilkins at verizon.net>
>>> To: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> Cc: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 11:55:14 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ambiguity
>>>
>>> No complaints from me, Carl, for what that's worth. I'm touching on
>>> the subject of ambiguity right now with a basic Greek class at
>>> church. We've all heard how much more precise ancient Greek is
>>> compared to English, and while that's true on many fronts, it's just
>>> as important to know where the Greek is ambiguous. My favorite
>>> nomination is the circumstantial participle. The Greeks seem to have
>>> been entirely comfortable with the multiple ways these participles
>>> can be interpreted in various contexts, while in English it is
>>> almost
>>> automatic to avoid them and use a subordinate clause with an adverb
>>> instead to clarify the relationship to governing verbs. Another one
>>> that came up in my class last night was the middle/passive voice. I
>>> was explaining the voices and how one can determine the voice from
>>> endings, when a bright young man asked how you tell the difference
>>> between the middle and passive in the present tense. I confessed
>>> that
>>> one cannot, and that one has to rely on context (marginal "Or" notes
>>> in many translations testify to the fact). I illustrated with the
>>> middle/passive imperatives in James 2:16 (which can also be
>>> parsed as
>>> indicatives, about which I said nothing), pointing out that there,
>>> even the context does not nail down the voices used. I also pointed
>>> out that while the reflexive concept might be the simplest (or
>>> simplistic) way to understand the middle voice, it is also unlikely
>>> in most instances and one has to resort to a lexicon for a probable
>>> meaning (I know that analysis of the middle voice is dear to your
>>> heart, Carl). So I think it's a good idea to discuss ambiguity in
>>> ancient Greek at the beginning of a Greek curriculum. After all, the
>>> reality of the situation is that all real languages were put
>>> together
>>> by committees consisting of entire peoples and nations, and it's no
>>> wonder that they all have shortcomings.
>>>
>>> Don Wilkins
>>> S.I.R. The Lockman Foundation
>>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:37 AM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Feb 5, 2010, at 8:14 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>>> >> For what it is worth, Todays Greek Version renders the first
>>> >> hHNIKA with οποτε hOPOTE and the second hHNIKA with
>>> >> οταν hOTAN. The ABE Modern Greek gives οσακις hOSAKIS
>>> >> for the first, and for the second it gives
>>> >> μολις (which in Modern Greek means something like
>>> >> "as soon as") All temporal expressions, though
>>> >> maybe as Carl said, "temporal/generalizing."
>>> >>
>>> >> The Modern Greek has no more authority than any other
>>> >> translation, but I mention it only to remind everyone that
>>> >> Ancient Greek is a more ambiguous language than even
>>> >> Modern Greek.
>>> >>
>>> >> I think Donald is correct that while one CAN go
>>> >> see the conditional and or causal force of the
>>> >> hHNIKA's here, one should not.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I think Mark's statement about the ambiguity of ancient Greek is
>>> > right on target. I do believe that there are quite a few texts,
>>> the
>>> > meaning of the Greek text which is essentially unmistakable. I
>>> > think, however, that there are several that are open to
>>> alternative
>>> > interpretations whereof one or more is/are more probable than
>>> > othres -- and I rather think that there are more passages than we
>>> > readily
>>> > admit that do not provide clear grounds for determining which
>>> > sense is preferable (my apologies to any who find my opinion
>>> > offensive). I think too that we often ask questions about
>>> > what's in an author's mind that go beyond anything that s/he has
>>> > clearly stated. This is not, of course, just a matter of ancient
>>> > Greek;
>>> > it's true, I believe, of all communication: making oneself
>>> clear is
>>> > an enterprise that we sometimes succeed at and sometimes don't.
>>> > It does demand an effort -- if we really care to be understood.
>>> >
>>> > Carl W. Conrad
>>> > Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---
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>>> > B-Greek mailing list
>>> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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