[B-Greek] hO KURIOS TO PNEUMA - subject or predicate?

Blue Meeksbay bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 19 19:03:27 EST 2010


Hi Iver,
 
I like your suggestion. If we take ESTIN in that way, then in English it would almost become a Midrashic type hermeneutic.
 
“And the Lord (of Ex. 34) stands for the Spirit,” and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.”
 
Conversely, if we take Carl Conrad’s suggestion it seems TO PNEUMA becomes the subject (i.e. if hO KURIOS points back to verse 16).
 
“Now the Spirit, (that is to say the Lord), now where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.”
 
Either way, each of these understandings seems to support a Midrashic type hermeneutic.
 
A third possibility is that ESTIN might be seen in a comparative way.
 
“Whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is taken away, and whatever the Lord is, the Spirit is, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom” 
 
Or perhaps, 
 
“Whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is taken away. Now the Spirit will reflect everything the Lord is, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there will always be freedom”) 
 
This would be understood in the sense of ALLOS – another of the same kind.
 
KAGW ERWTHSW TON PATERA KAI ALLON PARAKLHTON DWSEI hUMIN, hINA Hi MEQ' hUMWN EIS TON AIWNA  Jn. 14:16
 
It seems this comparative sense would also fit in nicely with Rev. 19:10
 
KAI EPESA EMPROSQEN TWN PODWN AUTOU PROSKUNHSAI AUTWi KAI LEGEI MOI, hORA MH· SUNDOULOS SOU EIMI KAI TWN ADELFWN SOU TWN ECONTWN THN MARTURIAN IHSOU· TWi QEWi PROSKUNHSON. hH GAR MARTURIA IHSOU ESTIN TO PNEUMA THS PROFHTEIAS   
 
“For the spirit of prophecy [will always] reflect the testimony of Jesus.”
 
What say ye?
 
BTW I agree when you wrote – 
 
“Any discussion about whether Jesus is the Spirit or the Spirit is Jesus is in my view besides the point and caused by a too narrow understanding of ESTIN.”
 
I agree. I do not think Paul is saying the Lord and the Spirit are one and the same Person, or that in some way the Lord became the Spirit.
 
Sincerely,
Blue Harris

 



________________________________
From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 10:33:31 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] hO KURIOS TO PNEUMA - subject or predicate?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Blue Meeksbay" <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
To: "Stephen Carlson" <stemmatic at gmail.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 17. februar 2010 22:13
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] hO KURIOS TO PNEUMA - subject or predicate?


> 
> Below is a list of those verses I found that had a similar construction using ESTIN. What is interesting I could not find one example that had the exact same construction of subject - predicate – verb. The most common structure was, subject – verb – predicate, so I do not know if the structure of the verse itself can help us, unless there are examples from extra-biblical sources.
> 
> 
> hO LUCNOS TOU SWMATOS ESTIN hO OFQALMOS. EAN OUN Hi hO OFQALMOS SOU hAPLOUS, hOLON TO SWMA SOU FWTEINON ESTAI·
> Mt 6:22
> 
> Subject verb predicate – Most translations
> Predicate verb subject – ESV, NIV

In this discussion I have not seen what I consider to be the crucial question. What does ESTIN mean? It may function as a copula, and it often is equivalent to the English "is", but not always. ESTIN is much broader in meaning which is easy to see if you look up the very long entry for EIMI in a dictionary.

Sometimes it is neither equivalence nor description, but a loose connection which needs to be understood in context. One of these loose connection meanings are related to "stand for, bring about, lead to", and that is where I think we need to go with some of these verses:

Mat 6:22  hO LUCNOS TOU SWMATOS ESTIN hO OFQALMOS. EAN OUN Hi hO OFQALMOS SOU hAPLOUS, hOLON TO SWMA SOU FWTEINON ESTAI.

With some implicit information from the metaphor explicated, I think the intended meaning is something like:

The eye is like a lamp that brings light to your inner being. So, if your eye is good/sincere, your whole inner being will be illuminated.
(See also NLT)
Or you could say: The light-supplier of the body is the eye.

What is important to me is not which is subject and which is complement, but what does the text mean.
> __________________
> 
> O DE AGROS ESTIN hO KOSMOS, TO DE KALON SPERMA hOUTOI EISIN hOI hUIOI THS BASILEIAS· TA DE ZIZANIA EISIN hOI hUIOI TOU PONHROU
> Mt 13:38

The field stands for the world. The good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom.

> ________________
> 
> ESTIN DE AUTH hH PARABOLH· hO SPOROS ESTIN hO LOGOS TOU QEOU
> Lu 8:11
> 

The seed stands for the word of God

> ____________________________
> KAI EPESA EMPROSQEN TWN PODWN AUTOU PROSKUNHSAI AUTWi KAI LEGEI MOI, hORA MH· SUNDOULOS SOU EIMI KAI TWN ADELFWN SOU TWN ECONTWN THN MARTURIAN IHSOU· TWi QEWi PROSKUNHSON. hH GAR MARTURIA IHSOU ESTIN TO PNEUMA THS PROFHTEIAS Re 19:10
> 
> Subject – verb – predicate – Most translations
> Predicate – verb – subject - Darby, NLT

The spirit of prohecy brings about (stands for) the testimony of/to Jesus
-----------------
hO DE KURIOS TO PNEUMA ESTIN· OU DE TO PNEUMA KURIOU, ELEUQERIA
II Cor. 3:17

The Lord (Jesus) brings about (stands for) the Spirit. Where the Spirit is, there is freedom.

When someone turns to Jesus the veil is removed, and that new understanding is closely connected to the Spirit which a person receives when he turns to the Lord. It is Jesus who sent the Spirit.

Any discussion about whether Jesus is the Spirit or the Spirit is Jesus is in my view besides the point and caused by a too narrow understanding of ESTIN.

Iver Larsen


      


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