[B-Greek] DOKEIS MOI +inf
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sat Feb 20 16:33:19 EST 2010
On Feb 20, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>
> On Feb 20, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
>> On Feb 20, 2010, at 3:31 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>> Homer:
>>>
>>> δοκέεις δέ μοι οὐκ ἀπινύσσειν Od.5.342
>>> DOKEEIS DE MOI OUK APINUSSEIN Od.5.342
>>>
>>> Sophocles
>>> Ajax
>>> 594 {ΑΙ.} Μῶρά μοι δοκεῖς φρονεῖν,
>>> 595 εἰ τοὐμὸν ἦθος ἄρτι παιδεύειν νοεῖς.
>>>
>>> O.T.
>>> 401 Κλαίων δοκεῖς μοι καὶ σὺ χὠ συνθεὶς τάδε
>>> ἁγηλατήσειν· εἰ δὲ μὴ 'δόκεις γέρων
>>> εἶναι, παθὼν ἔγνως ἂν οἷά περ φρονεῖς.
>>>
>>> The second person singular DOKEIS with MOI w/ :or: w/o infinitive doesn't seem to be a New Testament idiom, and for that reason I spent some time pondering it yesterday. It is common in Greek prior to Koine.
>>
>> It's not clear what you're trying to get at; I don't know how wide-ranging your search was, but it may be worth noting that all the examples you've cited are in verse; what's common in verse is often rare in prose.
>
I've deleted the re-run of the cited passages since they are the same ones.
>
> Carl,
>
> It is hard to explain since I not totally sure what I am getting at :-)
>
> DOKEW can be used in the third person singular + inf as an impersonal "it seems" or with MOI "it seems to me". The second person argument seems to be similar to the impersonal in one respect, i.e., the subject of the verb isn't the one doing the perception. In other words, the one performing the cognition is encoded as a dative MOI, "you seem to me" +inf or "I think that you are" +inf. I am just speculating here, the english glosses give me cold chills since I think glossing these things actually obscures the Greek issues.
Again, I can only judge by the examples you have cited. But I will agree that they look impersonal, i.e. DOKEIS MOI + infinitive = "it looks like you are x-ing"; BUT in each of the instances you've cited the MOI of the interpreter of what the situation looks like is very important.
Odyssey 5:342 "You don't look stupid to ME!"
Ajax 594-5: "It looks to ME like you don't have good sense, if you think you're going to brainwash me now."
OT 401ff.: "It looks to me like you and your co-conspirator aren't going to enjoy ridding Thebes of the curse, If you didn't look like an old man, you would discern in pain just how sound your judgment is."
That is to say, each of these instances you've cited involves a judgment of the relative intelligence and discernment of the speaker and the person addressed. That is to say: the speaker is, in each instance, commenting on the disparity of his interlocutor's apparent and real intelligence.
> The examples I found in the NT of DOKEW in the second person did't fit this pattern. The second person was the one performing the cognition.
Right; there's only one I could find: Matt. 26:53 ἢ δοκεῖς ὅτι οὐ δύναμαι παρακαλέσαι τὸν πατέρα μου, καὶ παραστήσει μοι ἄρτι πλείω δώδεκα λεγιῶνας ἀγγέλων; [H DOKEIS hOTI OU DUNAMAI PARAKALESAI TON PATERA MOU, KAI PARASTHSEI MOI ARTI PLEIW DWDEKA LEGIWNAS AGGELWN?
]
> I found something less than 200 examples of DOKEIS MOI or MOI DOKEIS in both verse and prose. I didn't go for the prose since it was in documents I am not familiar with, Plato, etc.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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