[B-Greek] DOKEIS MOI +inf
revdougpickrel at aol.com
revdougpickrel at aol.com
Sat Feb 20 18:34:14 EST 2010
Hi Elizabeth,
"Suppose for me" I could just toss my two cents in?
That would be my thought.
Doug
Rev. Doug Pickrel, Litt.D.
Tejas Valley
San Antonio, Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
To: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, Feb 20, 2010 3:50 pm
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] DOKEIS MOI +inf
Carl,
You helped me understand what is going on. I think yesterday after mulling this
ver for quite a while I was about two thirds of the way to grasping what was
appening and you have cleared it up substantilly.
Thank you,
Elizabeth Kline
n Feb 20, 2010, at 1:33 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
> On Feb 20, 2010, at 4:10 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>
> On Feb 20, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
>> On Feb 20, 2010, at 3:31 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>> Homer:
>>>
>>> δοκέεις δέ μοι οὐκ ἀπινύσσειν Od.5.342
>>> DOKEEIS DE MOI OUK APINUSSEIN Od.5.342
>>>
>>> Sophocles
>>> Ajax
>>> 594 {ΑΙ.} Μῶρά μοι δοκεῖς φρονεῖν,
>>> 595 εἰ τοὐμὸν ἦθος ἄρτι παιδεύειν νοεῖς.
>>>> 594 {AI.} MWRA MOI DOKEIS FRONEIN,
>>>> 595 EI TOU)MON HQOS ARTI PAIDEUEIN NOEIS
>>>
>>> O.T.
>>> 401 Κλαίων δοκεῖς μοι καὶ σὺ χὠ συνθεὶς τάδε
>>> ἁγηλατήσειν· εἰ δὲ μὴ 'δόκεις γέρων
>>> εἶναι, παθὼν ἔγνως ἂν οἷά περ φρονεῖς.
>>> 401 KLAIWN DOKEIS MOI KAI SU CW) SUNQEIS TADE
>>>> hAGHLATHSEIN· EI DE MH 'DOKEIS GERWN
>>>> EINAI, PAQWN EGNWS AN hOIA PER FRONEIS.
>>> The second person singular DOKEIS with MOI w/ :or: w/o infinitive doesn't
eem to be a New Testament idiom, and for that reason I spent some time
ondering it yesterday. It is common in Greek prior to Koine.
>>
>> It's not clear what you're trying to get at; I don't know how wide-ranging
our search was, but it may be worth noting that all the examples you've cited
re in verse; what's common in verse is often rare in prose.
>
I've deleted the re-run of the cited passages since they are the same ones.
>
> Carl,
>
> It is hard to explain since I not totally sure what I am getting at :-)
>
> DOKEW can be used in the third person singular + inf as an impersonal "it
eems" or with MOI "it seems to me". The second person argument seems to be
imilar to the impersonal in one respect, i.e., the subject of the verb isn't
he one doing the perception. In other words, the one performing the cognition
s encoded as a dative MOI, "you seem to me" +inf or "I think that you are"
inf. I am just speculating here, the english glosses give me cold chills since
think glossing these things actually obscures the Greek issues.
Again, I can only judge by the examples you have cited. But I will agree that
hey look impersonal, i.e. DOKEIS MOI + infinitive = "it looks like you are
-ing"; BUT in each of the instances you've cited the MOI of the interpreter of
hat the situation looks like is very important.
Odyssey 5:342 "You don't look stupid to ME!"
Ajax 594-5: "It looks to ME like you don't have good sense, if you think
ou're going to brainwash me now."
OT 401ff.: "It looks to me like you and your co-conspirator aren't going to
njoy ridding Thebes of the curse, If you didn't look like an old man, you would
iscern in pain just how sound your judgment is."
That is to say, each of these instances you've cited involves a judgment of
he relative intelligence and discernment of the speaker and the person
ddressed. That is to say: the speaker is, in each instance, commenting on the
isparity of his interlocutor's apparent and real intelligence.
> The examples I found in the NT of DOKEW in the second person did't fit this
attern. The second person was the one performing the cognition.
Right; there's only one I could find: Matt. 26:53 ἢ δοκεῖς ὅτι οὐ δύναμαι
αρακαλέσαι τὸν πατέρα μου, καὶ παραστήσει μοι ἄρτι πλείω δώδεκα λεγιῶνας
γγέλων; [H DOKEIS hOTI OU DUNAMAI PARAKALESAI TON PATERA MOU, KAI PARASTHSEI
OI ARTI PLEIW DWDEKA LEGIWNAS AGGELWN?
]
> I found something less than 200 examples of DOKEIS MOI or MOI DOKEIS in both
erse and prose. I didn't go for the prose since it was in documents I am not
amiliar with, Plato, etc.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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