[B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
Mark Lightman
lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sun Feb 21 07:07:39 EST 2010
Vacile egrapse:
<Coming back to our Greek idiom, my proposal was
supposed to clarify the relationship between the two datives...>
Hi, Vacile,
I think Vacile is exactly on point here. I think the problem is
that we have not sufficiently analyzed the idiom in terms of
the likely ellipsis and the exact force of the datives.
I would suggest that in the original idiom, some such word
as DIALOGOS, "conversation," was to be supplied, and the
datives are datives of (dis)advantage; "Why is this discussion
in our interest, what good is it doing us to rehash this?"
We have noted that parallel idioms exist in both Semitic
and Hellenistic circles: "Genug--enough already." "Why,
Mother, are we still talking about this? Are we not beating
a dead hIPPOS to death?"
The key to understanding this very difficult phrase is the
semantic marker TI, which linguistic analysis has
identified as indicating ongoing perplexity and frustration.
In terms of deep structure, this clearly points back to the
two uses of TI in Lk 2:48 and 49.:
Τι εποιησας ημιν ουτως: ιδου ο πατηρ σου καγω
οδυνωμενοι εζητουμεν σε. 49. και ειπεν προς αυτους
τι οτι εζητουμεν σε;
TI EPOIHSAS hHMIN hOUTWS? IDOU hO PATHR
SOU KAGW ODUNWMENOI EZHTOUMEN SE. 49.
KAI EIPEN PROS AUTOUS. TI OTI EZHTEITE ME?
"Why did you do this to us? Such constant pain your father
and I have trying to find you." So he says: 'But why are
you constantly trying to track me down?"
The progressives show an ongoing and repeated
state of mutual irritation and perplexity on the part of both
parties. If you leave out most of the words,
you have the same sense, with an idiom very
similar to TI EMOI KAI SOI:
TI...hMIN?...TI..ME
"Why (are you hurting) us? (Yeah, but) why
(are you driving) me (crazy with this constant
nagging?)
"Why me?"
Jesus and Ηis mother have been having
this same conversation over and over again
for 20 years, with no discernible progress.
TI EMOI KAI SOI is idiomatic
code because the topic has already been
covered many times. "This again?"
I was talking to my own mother the
other day, and used a similar phrase.
"How come you never call?" she says.
"GUNAI," I say, "I'm with you right
now. I'm talking to you now. This
instant! Can we please discuss
something else? TI EMOI KAI
SOI? What good is this doing us?"
She gives me two sweaters for my birthday,
right? So I make sure the next time I see
her, I am wearing one of them. So what's
the first thing she says to me? "What's wrong?
Didn't you like the other sweater I bought you?"
Oi veh! The woman drives me crazy! But I love
her to death. As did Jesus Ηis mom.
:)
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
--- On Sat, 2/20/10, Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro> wrote:
From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
To: "'Iver Larsen'" <iver_larsen at sil.org>, "'Louis Sorenson'" <llsorenson at hotmail.com>, "'B-Greek List mail to all'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 11:42 PM
Yet it should be of certain interest to understand the components of an idiom individually, as well as how they function together in a meaningful way grammatically. I would compare the idioms, as they are used in language communication, with methaphors in poetry. Both these categories are affixed some kind of imagery which is construed by means of the component words. Understanding an idiom would require, I believe, accepting and understanding that kind of imagery together with all the logical implications extracted from the various uses of that particular idiom. Take for instance the English idiom 'chewing the fat'; I think that one who ignores the image of someone who is busy chewing a spoonful of fat deprives himself of some interesting nuances such idiom suggests. (However, this particular idiom may fall into a similar category with idioms of ancient time cultures, in this age where so many people cannot really imagine how that could be, given the
semi-global attitude of
abhorrance toward anythings that bears any tracks of cholesterol).
Coming back to our Greek idiom, my proposal was supposed to clarify the relationship between the two datives. Most of the text references given seem to put the two persons/entities on positions of some sort of separation. I believe the person speaking is drawing a kind of separation line between the interest/attitude/plan/will, etc. of his and the counterpart of the other person. If this is true, then this construction would be an idiom 'improper', since its meaning is basically derived from its individual components.
It is crucial, I believe, to first understand the cultural settings of the times, before properly understanding the meaning of certain idiomatic constructions. However, it is quite dangerous to rely primarily on cultural settings, subordinating to them every possible logical explanations. For instance, I heard that the explanation of the English idiom 'It rains cats and dogs' is that in older times there were too many cats and dogs around in England, and they spent most of their time lying on rooftops. When rain came, they would rush jumping down from the rooftops, hence they were dropping like rain. To me, this explanation is rather childish; it seems more logical to me that the idiom is not a substitute for 'rain' but it describes a 'strong rain'. Therefore the explanations should better be related to the fact that cats and dogs are usually at enmity with each other and there is always a conflict when they meet. (I wonder what explanations may be given
to the Romanian idiom
that would be literally translated into English 'Where the devil <verb at past tense> his children' (<verb at past tense> = action taken on little children when trained to shift from mother's milk to different food - I do not know the English equivalent). I 'shudder' imagining what one may find 'searching' the old Romanian culture in that respect; probably a new series of Dracula stories...)
Vasile Stancu
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Iver Larsen
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 8:00 AM
To: Louis Sorenson; B-Greek List mail to all
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
... this is an idiom, and you cannot get the
meaning of an idiom by adding up the meaning of the individual words, nor by
making a literal translation
....
Iver Larsen
---
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