[B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
Vasile STANCU
stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
Tue Feb 23 18:03:26 EST 2010
I sometimes have the feeling that, when trying to understand things pertaining to a remote culture in its own patterns, we tend to force that culture to conform the standards of our times - I mean, we seem to be not ready to understand such things unless a convenient equivalent is found in our own culture. The very fact that Jesus addresses his mother with that which we would translate by the English "woman" is proof enough that such a formula was not desrespectful. Why appeal to other cultural settings (such as the condition of the woman in ancient times, etc.) since this is so clear? (It would be like finding a defect in a material which can be clearly evaluated by eye and one says: "No, I would like to use a microscope... just to make sure... Then, the defect being so large, he can see nothing in the microscope... no defect... Strange!...").
Vasile Stancu
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Blue Meeksbay
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:37 PM
To: Gene Cockerham
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
Bengel mentioned the following:
“…the Greek GUNAI, having no synonym in our language, has a more respectful sound than Woman (ch. xix. 26 shows it betrays no want of tender respect), mulier, (Germ.) Weib, as contradistinguished from (female, lady) femina, (Germ.) Frau: and woman is used for mother, Is. xlv 10, ‘Woe unto him, that saith – to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?’”
But, even if GUNAI is not considered to be respectful term at that time in Israel, why do we presume it must be disrespectful when used by the Lord. Could there not be a reason for its use? Could not the Lord have been restoring respect to the word? Woman is an honorable word as originally coined by Adam. It is only because of man's sin that it did not retain its original connotation.
Jesus could have been using it with its original connotation, and it is only because of the “degraded” state of humans that anyone in the Lord’s day considered it otherwise. (e.g. the Rabbis used to thank God they were not created as a woman). Jesus was not afraid of using terms he knew would be misunderstood. Sometimes it seems he purposely used words to cause controversy. For example, he knew the words he spoke in John 6:53 would be misunderstood.
So could not have Jesus purposely been using GUNAI? I know some church fathers parallel Mary to Eve. As Eve failed, Mary succeeded. Mary, as the “Woman,” brought forth the promised Seed (Gen. 3:15), the Saviour of the world. This could be our Lord’s way (as the Creator) to honour his mother. Indeed, it could have been an indirect assertion that he was the Promised Seed – for who addresses one’s Mother as “Woman?”
Sincerely,
Blue Harris
P.S. It seems he often used GUNH in this non negative sense (e.g. Jn. 4:21; 8:10, etc.). It also seems angels used GUNAI with its original connotation. KAI QEWREI DUO AGGELOUS EN LEUKOIS KAQEZOMENOUS, hENA PROS THi KEFALHi KAI hENA PROS TOIS POSIN, hOPOU EKEITO TO SWMA TOU IHSOU. KAI LEGOUSIN AUTHi EKEINOI· GUNAI, TI KLAIEIS; LEGEI AUTOIS hOTI HRAN TON KURION MOU, KAI OUK OIDA POU EQHKAN AUTON. John 20:12-13
________________________________
From: Gene Cockerham <gene.cockerham at ncpres.org>
To: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>; Bill Yates <bill.yates4 at btinternet.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 10:17:40 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
Perhaps lady, or mother might offer a better English rendering though not
remain exactly true to the Greek. This is the same area that I struggle in
- rendering the best literal text into the best cultural understanding of
the different language. Perhaps, as well, a more complete understanding of
the contexts that GUNH would have been used in might assist us. In English
woman certainly can take on a rude tone when used as an address, though it
does not when used in a simple statement of facts.
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Albert Pietersma
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:07 AM
To: Bill Yates
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
On Feb 23, 2010, at 3:23 AM, Bill Yates wrote:
> Iver,
>
> What would you suggest instead of 'woman' as a more accurate
> translation - or to express the intent more faithfully?
>
> Many thanks
Epictetus 2.19.19 has an exact parallel to Joh 2:4, namely, TI EMOI
KAI SOI, ANQRWPE. So if Joh 2:4 is toned down for linguistic reasons,
shouldn't the same apply to Epictetus 2.19.19? The only difference
would seem to be that Epictetus gives more context.
Al
>
> Bill Yates
>
>
>
> On 23 Feb 2010, at 04:49, Iver Larsen wrote:
>
>>
>> The hour in John 2:4 has nothing to do with whose turn it is to
>> produce wine.
>>
>> But I do agree that using "woman" to translate the vocative GUNH
>> makes the text
>> more rude that it was intended to be. That is a matter of poor
>> translation. A
>> literal translation often turns the text in the wrong direction.
>>
>
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-
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
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Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
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