[B-Greek] the verb eimi
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Feb 25 06:47:40 EST 2010
On Feb 25, 2010, at 2:18 AM, Vasileios Tsialas wrote:
>
> What it doesn’t mean for sure is that Jesus is introducing himself as an immutable, unchanging, without beginning and end, being in contrast with Abraham, who is mutable, changing, with a beginning and end, being, according to famous platonic axiom of being and becoming.τί τὸ ὂν ἀεί͵ γένεσιν δὲ οὐκ ἔχον; (Timeaus 27d)Contrary to the traditional myth, there is nothing in the context of the words of Jesus in John (especially if we remember that those words were originally said in Hebrew or Aramaic)that should force us to understand them according to the principles of platonic ontology, which is responsible, whether modern laity readers understand it or not, for the hot debates as to how they should be translated.The connection with Ex 3:14 (which verse, and it is not the only one, in LXX is translated also according to the platonic ontology) is based also in this myth.
This is a new one to me, despite the fact that I've seen plenty of speculation on Platonic thought in Alexandrian Hellenistic Jewish thought prior to and including Philo. I frankly think that it is counter-productive even to introduce such a thought into any discussion of John 8:58. The fact is that this verse and the use of the verb EIMI in it has been discussed repeatedly (dare I say 'ad nauseam'?) on B-Greek, often quite heatedly, as I hope does not happen again.
If anyone really wants to explore past wrestling with this text, go to our archives:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/
Type your search term(s) in the search field at the bottom of the page and then click on the "search" button.
You could use: "John 8:58" -- or "PRIN ABRAAM GENESQAI" -- or "EGW EIMI"
How enlightening this may be, I'm not sure, but you will find plenty to chew on ;-)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> From: njoseph at sympatico.ca
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:23:37 -0500
>> Subject: [B-Greek] the verb eimi
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Question : I received a comment today in regards to the verb Jesus used: “I am” εἰμί . ESV John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." The person was saying that the verb could also mean "have been, was", or be used in reference to something that happened in the past (before the present). Now, some will use this expression to say that Jesus echoes God’s self-identification to Moses in Exod.3.14.
>>
>> Does the verb εἰμί mean have been in certain context?
>>
>> Normand Joseph
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