[B-Greek] Does TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN look forward or backward?
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Thu Jan 28 14:19:25 EST 2010
Hi George -
Slow person of mind that I am, someone, just politely suggested to me off-list that you meant for one to include the chapter and verse of the NT texts in repeat emails. I may be slow, but like a good dog, I will eventually obtain the habit!
Sincerely,
"Old Blue"
________________________________
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>; Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 10:41:29 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Does TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN look forward or backward?
Would you care to enlighten us regarding where this passage is found?
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
To: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 9:00:18 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Does TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN look forward or backward?
Dear Dr. Conrad –
Is this an awkward construction, or is it just my English eyeglasses again. Alford says the following about this verse.
“17.] refers back to what has been said since ver. 2, and forms a transition to what is yet to be said. BUT THIS (viz. what had gone before, respecting the veiling of women, not as Chrys., Theophyl., Grot., Bengel., al., , that which follows: see below) I COMMAND YOU (not ‘announce to you,’ nor ‘declare to you from report,’ which are senses of PARAGG. unknown to the New TEST., where it only means ‘to command,’ to deliver ‘by way of precept…’ This makes it hardly possible to refer the word TOUTO to what follows; for if so, some definite command should immediately succeed) NOT PRAISING (refers to the EPAINO bestowed on them in v. 2, and excepts what has been said since from that category…”
If this is true, then it seems hOTI would be understood as “for” or “because,” and the preposition EIS would be understood as “unto,” so that the idea would be something like “for your coming together is not resulting in better things but worse things.” Paul then continues and describes those worse things from verse 18 onwards, but the coming together had already occurred when they came together first for prayer.
It seems the EMTV gives this idea. This is how they translate the verse. “Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, because you are not coming together for the better, but for the worse.” And Alford translation is as follows: “Now this precept I give unto you not praising you; because ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.”
It seems the paraphrase of the NIV would communicate what I am trying to say if the word “following” was replaced with “foregoing.” “In the following (foregoing) directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good.”
I guess the significance of this is determining if the “prayer and prophesying” of the women was done in the public gathering of the church or, as some think, in a private gathering. It seems Alford's view supports the view that the prayer and prophesying of men and women was done in the public gathering of worship and not in a private gathering, for SUNERCESQE would refer back to that time of prayer, whereas many modern translations would lend credence to the latter view.
This also seems to be supported by I Tim. 2:1 where Paul exhorts that first of all prayer be made by the church. I realize some believe this is not referring to the first thing a church should do in worship, but to the first exhortation Paul has for Timothy. It seems modern translations show this by joining PRWTOV PANTWN with the PARAKALW.” However, older translations, like Tyndale and the King James Version seem to join PRWTON PANTWN with POIEISQAI showing that it is referring to the first thing the church is called do in its public worship.
If PRWTON PANTWN is joined with POIEISQAI, does this not imply that the “prayer and prophesying of the church was one of “traditions” the Corinthians were keeping and, as such, was included in the praise of Paul in I Cor. 11:2? If that is true would, it not then indicate that the TOUTO of I Cor. 11:17 is looking backward rather than forward? However, I do not want to let my presuppositions read something into the Greek that is not there.
Sincerely,
Blue Harris
________________________________
From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 4:48:24 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Does TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN look forward or backward?
On Jan 27, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Blue Meeksbay wrote:
> TOUTO DE PARAGGELLWN OUK EPAINW OTI OUK EIS TO KPEITTON ALL EIS TO NTTON SUNEPXESQE I Cor. 11:17
>
> Is DE in this verse a transitional particle (as seen by Alford), or an adversatve particle (as translated, for example, by the ESV)?
You should note that ESV still makes verse 17 begin a new paragraph. I suppose some will agree with what you seem to be saying, that it has some bearing on the preceding item, but I think his focus here in this is clearly with the eucharist. I think that the DE is transitional even if it's Englished as "but." I take the present participle here with specific reference to the SUNERCESQE clause: "If you care for my advice on this matter, I can't commend you gathering for a trifling purpose rather than a serious one." But there is adversative force in the DE also, inasmuch as he wrote in verse 2: Ἐπαινῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς ὅτι πάντα μου μέμνησθε ... [EPAINW DE hUMAS hOTI PANTA MOU MEMNHSQE ... ]: in the first instance he congratulated them; he cannot do so with respect to the way they gather for the eucharist. So I think that the TOUTO here is pointing forward to the hOTI clause. A major thread running through the entire letter is
the esoteric individualism running rife in the congregation in Corinth.
> In other words, does PARAGGELLWN refer back to the setting in verses 2-16, or does it look forward to what he begins in verse 18. Also, does SUNEPXESQE refer back to the setting in verses 2-16, or does it look forward to what he begins in verse 18. Do his statements regarding prayer in the first part of the chapter only refer to when they are publicly gathered in church, or does it refer to prayers done in some other venue. In other words, is Paul referring to a “broad” or basic threefold aspect of worship of the church when they are gathered together? 1) The prayers I Cor. 11: 2-17, (reminiscent of TAIS PROSEUCAIS of Acts 2:48), 2) Breaking of Bread or Eucharist I Cor. 11:18- 34, and 3) Ministry or exercise of spiritual gifts, I Cor. 12-14?
>
> If the former, it then seems the praise in 11:2 would be directed to the fact that this threefold "traditional" aspect of worship is being maintained by the Corinthians; his disapproval would be directed to only how they are observing those aspects. If the latter, then it seems the praise in 11:2 is directed to the fact that a twofold aspect of worship is being maintained in the public gathering of the church and his disapproval is in how they are observing those aspects. Is the Greek construction too nebulous to decide for sure?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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