[B-Greek] Best Practices for Teaching/Learning Greek

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 1 15:28:22 EDT 2010


John wrote

<Without going into details
though, I would say that if one has one 
and one-half to two hours to give to
learning a foreign language (living or 
dead), and using the methods as
generally prescribed in modern learning theory, then one can become "fluent"
in a year or less.>

Hi, John,

What are some specific things that you would recommend a Greek self-study student do
which are in accordance with modern learning theory?

 Mark L



FWSFOROS MARKOS




________________________________
From: John Sanders <john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com>
To: Louis Sorenson <llsorenson at hotmail.com>
Cc: B-Greek List mail to all <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 1:32:48 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Best Practices for Teaching/Learning Greek

[JFS] If I may, I would like to make a few comments on some of the items you
have raised:

On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Louis Sorenson <llsorenson at hotmail.com>wrote:

>
> Hello all,
>
> After teaching a class trying some living language methodologies for
> ancient Greek (NT), I have a few questions which I am asking myself. I also
> have self-study students in mind and those who may be remote-study students.
> Many of these topics have been touched on here or there in the b-Greek
> emails and some directly in Buth's and Rico's books from their persepctives.
> But putting them into a list helps me realize I still have a lot of
> questions.
>
> The questions are broken down into the following categories:
>
> BEST PRACTICES FOR SELF-STUDY STUDENTS
> USING LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES
> COMPOSITION AND TRANSLATION AND READING
> INCORPORATION OF LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES INTO TRADITIONAL CLASSES
> ACCEPTANCE OF LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES
>
> BEST PRACTICES FOR SELF-STUDY/Remote STUDENTS
> 1. How does the self-study get  significant time in video?  Should they
> watch supplemental videos, watch class videos posted by others? Can one-way
> videos (not Skype where there is interaction) be of any value?
> 2. How does the self-study get  significant time response to real-life
> question/answer methods rather than replying to a stock question where the
> answer is in an answer key?
> 3. How important is accountability? How does the self-study student make
> themselves acheive and do the work? They get no grade, pay no fees,
> etc. Would a club membership (like on Schole) with kind of attainment
> badge (=skill status) be of value and encouragement?
>
> USING LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES
> 4. To what extent do living language methods make a difference in
> increasing understanding and accelerating the learning curve?
>

[JFS]  It accelerates the learning curve significantly.  The reason?
Because it is a methodolgy that encourages or requires the student to engage
in the language as language.  Talking about nouns, verbs, 3rd person plural,
forms, agents, etc. can be interesting, even knowledge producing-but it has
very little to do with fluency in language.  When my wife was teaching
Japanese for the University of Washington, a young man, not in college,
approach her through a common friend and asked is she would tutor him.  He
had already became fluent by purchasing and practicing diligently Japanese
for seven months from a Berlitz audio tape program.  His fluency was limited
by the vocabulary and sentence patterns in the program, but that was not
very limiting.  He could understand conversation Japanese easily, and
without translating it in his head and mulling over the names of the word
classes that composed the sentences, etc.  It can be done with Greek, Latin,
Hebrew, Classical Chinese.  But it takes a lot of practice and drills by the
student, a lot.  But that is with any skill you wish to develop.


> 5.  How much time does one need when using aural/visual learning
> methodologies compared to non-aural traditional methods? More, less, or the
> same?
>

[JFS] I am reading Mark Tidwell's "The Ponds of Kalmbayi".  (I am enjoying
the book, but if we put the writer on a line representing general political,
economic, social and religous leanings, then I would place him on the left
side of the line; and consequently there is much left leaning drivel in the
book, but there is also much good data).  Mark says he acquired fluency in 6
months.  My daughter also spent over a year in Japan, and in an area where
there is no "English Language Environment" to hide in.  She also acquired
fluency in roughly the same amount of time.  Without going into details
though, I would say that if one has one and one-half to two hours to give to
learning a foreign language (living or dead), and using the methods as
generally prescribed in modern learning theory, then one can become "fluent"
in a year or less.  If one has less time available, then it will take
longer.  Using modern learning theory can, I believe, accerate the
acquisition of the language.


> 6. Is there an age-appropriate limit for living language methods?  Older
> adults needing the systematic explanation of phrases and younger
> students more able to adapt (have less need) of grammatical explanations
>  and more interested in using a language?
>
[JFS]  This is probably indvidual specific and is a function of the learning
experience of the individual.


> 7. When should grammar be studied, concurrently or
> subsequentially?  Should grammar be studied systematically or ad hoc as in
> inductive methods?
>
[JFS]  John Cicoski, an Classical Chinese Linquist (although he referred to
himself as a Classical Chinese Philologist] believed that one should "know
the language" before acquiring knowledge in the language.  There is a lot of
drive in put out in classical languages, it is not because the author "knows
the language" and not linguistics, but rather  because they do "not know the
language" yet are quite capable in the science of linguistics.


> 8. What amount of non-Biblical words should be included?
>
[JFS]  As extensive as possible.


> 9. How and when to wean a student off of speaking/hearing into reading or
> if reading
>  was always a part, how and when to discontinue such methods (or is
> listening kept and not speaking?
>
[JFS]  This is probably a function of their environment.  If they have
access to individuals to whom they can speak and listen to, then continue.
If not, then cease.  I am of the school that reading should be used from the
very beginning.  Why?  Because most of us come to the study of Greek as
literate adults, consequently for many of us our capability to use
oral/aural skills have become muted.


>
> COMPOSITION AND TRANSLATION AND READING
> 10.  What type of composition methods are best, phrases, whole sentences,
> fill in the blanks, ktl?
>

[JFS] I would think this is a function of their knowledge base.  As an
example, the Greek equivalent to the English word "one" has three general
forms, of which one is correct depending on gender of the noun it is
associated with.   This I would think will take a lot of drills, practice
time associating one form of one word class with another form in another
word class.  There should be sufficient drills, both oral/aural and
writing/reading so that the association becomes habitual and "automatic".

into English have more, less or equal value from composing into Greek?

12.  How does a self-study student know their translation/composition is OK?

13.  At what point are students expected to get longer sentences?
[JFS]  As soon as they have acquired some words in the various word
classes.

Is there
value in having longer involved sentences, even though they may be
simple?  [JFS]  Yes.

14.  Does reading long passages (a story like Athenaze or JACT) give more
to the student than traditional independent sentence based grammars?
[JFS]  Yes, the object of classical languages is to be able to read.  The
habit of reading early is useful for adults as it is for youth.


INCORPORATION OF LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES INTO TRADITIONAL CLASSES
15.  Is it possible to take a grammar like Mounce, Croy, or story based
grammars such as Athenaze, JACT, and Let's Study Greek (Hale) and use
living language methods with it?  Has anyone tried this?
[JFS]  Yes, but there is a lot of work involved.  And if one does not have a
good command of phonetics, much bad oral/aural defects will enter into the
skill set developed.


16.  Could a supplemental LLM class in addition to a traditional weekly
class be more value?  (e.g. 3 classes a week, one with LLM methods
covering the same material as the other two lessons which are taught the
standard way) versus 3 traditional classes a week?

The reason for using LLM is to accerate the learning process.  The mixing, I
suspect, will obstruct that goal, the traditional methods will dominate and
slow down the learning process.


ACCEPTANCE OF LIVING LANGUAGE METHODOLOGIES
17.  What level of acceptance of ancient Greek living language methodologies
will be accepted by institutions of higher learning and accreditation?
[JFS]  I suspect that most of those teaching or administrating classical
languages instruction have a vested interest in the system as is and not in
putting in jeopardy their standing in a "new fangled" method of teaching and
learning.

Will demonstration of numerous students' capabilities (such as passing a
Greek Exam) validate such methodologies, or will they be relegated to the
shadows for the foreseeable future?
[JFS]  only indirectly.  It is just when students and alumni see the
advantages and begin to demand that they get value for their money will
changes take place.


18.   Do those decision makers in such institutions have any available
criteria or standards by which to judge the success of ancient Greek LLM
pedagogies?

Any answers or even more questions would be appreciated. Sometimes just
reading through a list of such questions will get the mind to re-evaluate
how they would like to learn/teach.

Louis Sorenson






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