[B-Greek] Arthur Way and 1 Tim 2:15

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Fri Nov 19 10:16:49 EST 2010


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Mark Lightman
To: Iver Larsen ; Daniel Buck ; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: 19. november 2010 17:05
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Arthur Way and 1 Tim 2:15

I understand the subject of σωθησεται to be Eve, and construe the verb not as a 
passive, but as a middle with active force.  I would english the verse as

"But she (Eve) will provide salvation through the birth of the child (Jesus) if 
they (Christian women) remain in faith and love and holy self control."

Iver wrote:

<The woman will eventually inherit eternal life in the new world (which is the 
meaning of the future - shall be saved) as long as she does not get sidetracked 
from her faith by teaching things she is not qualified to teach, but rather 
fulfills the calling she was expected to fulfill in that society, namely good 
parenting. Isn't that a Christian value?>

Hi, Iver,

No, no, I don't think it is a Christian value.  I think that is a Hindu value. 
That is a Victorian value.  The Christian value is that the form of this social 
world, with it's gender roles, is passing away (1 Cor 7:31) and that Christian 
men and woman are saved in exactly the same way, (Gal 3:28), through faith in 
Jesus Christ, who came from Mary and before that from Eve.

I do like Way's translation, though, as far as it goes.

Mark L
Φωσφορος
---------------------

Well, I meant, isn't good parenting a Christian value? How the parents divide 
the task between them is a cultural issue, and that has greatly changed in the 
West in the last 100 years. Anyway, that is a side issue in our discussion.

Your understanding of the verse is new to me. In the preceding verse, the 
subject is not Eve, but hH GUNH in a general sense, and that is carried over as 
subject for the passive verb in v. 15. It is because of this general sense, that 
Paul can easily switch from the singular to the plural.

There are 55 occurrences of a passive form of SWiZW in the NT (and 51 actives). 
The verb does not lend itself to a middle sense in the NT, since that would 
probably mean "save yourself", but that sense is expressed by a reflexive 
pronoun with the active as in 1 Tim 4:16. If you can find one middle of this 
verb in the NT, show me. How you can suggest that it could mean "provide 
salvation" I do not understand, but you don't provide any supporting arguments. 
I cannot see how a future passive SWQHSETAI can have an active force. It is not 
a future middle (*SWSETAI). To "provide salvation" would require an active form.

My point is that if you take TEKNOGONIA to mean childbirth or childbearing here, 
you have already ended up in the mud and will try all sorts of ways to pull 
yourself up by the hair.

Another thing to look at is that SWiZW is used with different referential 
meanings whether it is in the past, present or future - as it is here. But your 
theology will come into play with this word.

Iver Larsen 




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