[B-Greek] attic writers during koine period or post koine

nikolaos kadamou ntgreekreader at gmail.com
Sun Nov 28 21:57:04 EST 2010


Mark,
the variance we have do not have replacement of Koine with Attic but
rather written inserts to the text of the Alexandrian pronunciation by
adding additional (ν) at the end of the words or (μ) in the middle of
words as λήμψομαι for λήψομαι.
Theodosios (4c AD) in his grammar explains why there is no way that μ
may exist before ψ in Greek words.

On Barry's point, it is an interesting one to see the article by

JANNARIS, A. N., On the True Meaning of the Κοινή (Class. Rev., 1903,
pp. 93 ff.).
http://www.jstor.org/pss/694668

and if one likes to go to all references, particular to the Dionysius
of Halicarnassus on The Art of Rhetoric (Τέχνη ῥητορική, Téchne
rhētorikē) will generate even greater appreciation for KOINH.

When a native speaker listens to one dialect while uses another
dialect of the same language, do not make translations.  When st. Paul
talked to Athenians, did not use Attic, but what st. Luke gives us in
the ACTS, neither the Athenians had to translate his powerful speech
into Attic.

There is a lot of literature about the rhetoric of the New Testament,
but I do not think that anyone needs to go to that.  Caragounis in his
book has an entire chapter with many technical rhetorical points,
explanations and comparisons.

What I mean by "powerful" is the feeling of the audience to the
orators of the NT - and if this is subjective - which it is to a point
but not entirely, then one may take a look of the results of these
sermons.  The entire world was changed because of these sermons, and
there is Christianity the dominant faith at least for several
centuries, and not that many people believe in the 12 gods of Olympus.
I will not go on to this argument, it is more history than anything else.

I would like to stay in rhetoric.

There is powerful rhetoric in Attic, my personal preferences are in
speeches transmitted to us by Thucydides, but also Isocrates and
Lysias.  It is an interesting to look at the evaluation that Dionysius
makes for Demosthenes - not that positive, and I think rightful so.

But is also interesting to see the later Greek rhetoric by sts. Basil
or John Chrysostom and the other church fathers.

This is what I mean by powerful.  I have not seen anything in Attic
that powerful.  I am still looking and I am very interesting for
suggestions.

Now-days that I am working in the vocal aspect of rhetoric I realize
that this comparison is much more striking when one does not just
read, but reads aloud or listens to the different speeches in
different Greek dialects.

Another look.

John Werle Rife, in his 1933 chapter in the book by Ernest Cadman
Colwell and Donald W. Riddle, Chicago University Press, entitled "The
Antoniades Greek New Testament"
( the entire text is available at -
http://www.cspmt.org/pdf/printed_editions/Antoniades-1904-Greek-NT.pdf
) on page 62, second paragraph says:

"The arbitrariness does not end with a few such passages, but becomes
a fundamental principle of the edition in matters of punctuation and
orthography, the latter following Attic standard, rather than the MSS,
e.g., ν movable is always where the grammar says it should be, etc.
etc., etc.  This license taken with the manuscript spelling also
involves syntax; e. g. when subjunctives and indicatives are
distinguished by ω and ο, etc.  In such cases the criterion is Attic."

If this is "Attic" this is the most I have seen.  My contra to Rife
argument is that
when an editor has to deal with the mosaic of orthographically errors
of the manuscript he edits, there are three options.
One is to present the manuscript as it is with all its errors.Now that
we can examine several manuscripts on the web, we can see that, for
example, http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx.
The second is to correct all orthographic errors according to the
standard grammar of the language, and this is what Andoniades did in
his work.  The standard grammar of the koine and attic is the same, as
there is not other grammar for Brittish and American English but
several variations and usage of words.
The third solution is to arbitrary correct some errors and keep some
others as the NA27 and the western critical tradition follows.

The other problem that Rife on the previous paragraph I quoted had
with Antoniades' text is "this edition is intended primarily of
devotional, rather than critical purposes" as if NT it is not a
religious document, thus devotional in its character, or if a
devotional text cannot be in essence critical.  The fact of the matter
is that Antoniades text is the first critical based on manuscripts
edition of the NT and because of Rife's unjust critique is not known
to the western audience.  One has to compare the 1904 editions of both
Antoniades and Nestle, and to the NA27 in order to observe the textual
evolution and the meaning of arbitrariness.

If the Antoniades text is the "attic" Greek text of the NT then it is
up to us to make comparisons and draw conclusions.



On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Alex observed:
>
> <It is worth pointing out, though, that the NT may have been subject to
> "atticization" on a micro-level.  Some of the textual variants we have may
> have come about through replacing a koine form with an attic one.>
>
> Excellent point, Alex.  And even before that, it can be argued that Luke
> "atticized" some of his sources, although in the first half of Acts he appears
> to have gone out of his way not to do this.
>
>  Mark L
> Φωσφορος
>
>
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alex Poulos <apviper at gmail.com>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sat, November 27, 2010 9:20:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] attic writers during koine period or post koine
>
> It is worth pointing out, though, that the NT may have been subject to
> "atticization" on a micro-level.  Some of the textual variants we have may
> have come about through replacing a koine form with an attic one.  This is
> supposed to have especially been the case in Alexandria, where there was a
> strong intellectual culture.  I don't know enough to say if that's the case,
> but I have read it.
>
> Alex Poulos
> Senior - Computer Science
> NC State University
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Barry H. <nebarry at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "nikolaos kadamou" <
> > ntgreekreader at gmail.com>
> > To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 11:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] attic writers during koine period or post koine
> >
> >
> >
> >  Thank you Mark.
> >> It seems to me that the Language of the Gospel and the entire NT is real
> >> and
> >> powerful.
> >> The common dialect, (κοινὴ διάλεκτος), is more powerful than the attic
> >> dialect, and thus more appropriate for Gods word to people.
> >> I do not think it was any reason for the early church to go though such an
> >> effort that in all practical essence it is meaningless.
> >> The task was to transmit the word of God and not to get involved in an
> >> academic exercise.
> >>
> >
> > However, such an exercise would be very interesting to determine how the
> > text was being read by Greek speakers of that period, at least, of the one
> > doing the translating.  More powerful?  It was commonly spoken, but "more
> > powerful" strikes me as a hopelessly subjective evaluation, depending on
> > precisely what you mean by it.
> >
> > N.E. Barry Hofstetter, semper melius Latine sonat...
> > Classics and Bible Instructor, TAA
> > http://www.theamericanacademy.net
> > (2010 Salvatori Excellence in Education Winner)
> > V-P of Academic Affairs, TNARS
> > bhofstetter at tnars.net
> > http://www.tnars.net
> >
> > http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
> > http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry
> >
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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> >
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>
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