[B-Greek] John 11:25

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sat Oct 30 14:16:29 EDT 2010


On Oct 29, 2010, at 6:32 PM, Kevin Riley wrote:
> I think there is a difference between "though he were dead" and "though dead".  One is subjunctive and does not claim the person is now dead, whereas the second does.  I believe the Elizabethan English allows an adverb (dead) where we would need an infinitve (to die).  I am not convinced the KJV translators meant to convey any other meaning except that death was a (future?) possibility.  I would not read into it any belief for or against the ability of the dead to believe.  With the ability of the language then to interchange parts of speech that we would not, I would not rule out 'dead' = 'to die'.  As has been pointed out, whatever they meant, the Greek means "though he were to die" in contemporary English.

GHRASKW AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS, KAQWS EFH POTE hO SOLWN -- TO DE hUSTATON, PWS DEI TO hUPOTATIKON TO AGGLIKON GRAFEIN KAI PWS AUTWi CRHSQAI.

This thread has been very instructive to me, much more with regard to English than to Greek. I now understand that KAN APOQANHi can legitimately be conveyed by English "Even if he were to die." Like Kevin, I have my doubts about "though he were dead" as 21st-century English, but I am certainly ready to accept "even if he were to die" as a legitimate equivalent of the Hellenistic Greek κἂν ἀποθανῇ [KAN APOQANHi]. "Though he were dead" is subjunctive, but is "dead" in that Elizabethan English expression a participle or an adjective? Is τεθνηκώς εἰμι [TEQNHKWS EIMI] equivalent to "I am dead" in Elizabethan English? If so, then we might expect "though he were dead to be  ἐὰν τεθνηκῶς ᾖ [EAN TEQNHKWS Hi] -- but is even that the same as EAN APOQANHi?

At any rate, I can see several legitimate formulations of the familiar line in the child's bedtime prayer:
(1) "If I should die before I wake, ... "
(2) "If I were to die before I wake ... "
(3) "If I die before I wake ... "
(4) more emphatic, "If I do die before I wake ... "

#4 might better appear in a sentence like, "I don't think it is like that I'll die before I wake, but if I do (die), then ... "

I think that in each of the above English formulations, the appropriate Greek equivalent would be simply ἐὰν ἀποθανῷ [EAN APOQANW].

But alas, I still wonder about "though he were dead ... "


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)


> On 30/10/2010 3:30 AM, Mike Burke wrote:
>> >>>>I get the impression that in
>> this case the meaning is something like "even if he should find himself
>> in the state of being dead", which we would want to 'translate' as "even
>> if he should die"<<<<
>> Thank you Kevin.
>> But it would seem odd to go on to say "he who believes in me and lives shall never die," after having just said "even if he should die."
>> What I was told concerning "though he were dead" being a "present counterfactual condition (even if he were dead (which he is not)," seems to me to be based on a doctrinal or philosophical presupposition.
>> Perhaps the premise that the dead are unable to believe in Christ (or unable to believe in anything, if they're unconscious.)
>> I understand that doctrinal issues are out of bounds here, and I would like to return to the translation issue.
>> .
>> What I would like to know is if the verse could be translated more or less as it is in the King James (he who believes in me, though dead will live; and if living will never die)?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --- On *Fri, 10/29/10, Kevin Riley /<klriley at alphalink.com.au>/* wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>    From: Kevin Riley <klriley at alphalink.com.au>
>>    Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 11:24
>>    To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>    Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 12:30 AM
>> 
>>    I think there are a few places that are misunderstood precisely
>>    because
>>    we don't understand the usage.  I am not an expert, but just from
>>    reading early modern texts I get the impression that they are using
>>    these forms differently to current usage.  I get the impression
>>    that in
>>    this case the meaning is something like "even if he should find
>>    himself
>>    in the state of being dead", which we would want to 'translate' as
>>    "even
>>    if he should die".  Perhaps it is just our lack of ease with the
>>    subjunctive in this case.  Surely someone has written a grammar of
>>    early
>>    modern English?  Of course, the problem with early modern English
>>    is the
>>    same as with Koiné Greek - the period is one of flux between middle
>>    English and modern English, and it is at times impossible to tell
>>    whether a writer is using words with old meanings or new.
>> 
>>    Kevin Riley
>> 
>>    On 29/10/2010 10:22 AM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>>    > On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:48 PM, Mike Burke wrote:
>>    >> Yes, I did mean John 11:25, and that is how it's translated in
>>    the A.V., isn't it?
>>    >>
>>    >> It does say "though he were dead, yet shall he live," doesn't it?
>>    >>
>>    >> Were the King James translators serious, or were they guilty of
>>    an obvious "mistranslation" here?
>>    > It does read that way, to be sure. I've never felt comfortable
>>    enough with Elizabethan English usage of modals
>>    > to judge that usage. All I can say is that it's pretty far
>>    removed from the English of the last couple centuries.
>>    >
>>    > Carl W. Conrad
>>    > Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>    >
>>    >> --- On Thu, 10/28/10, Carl Conrad<cwconrad2 at mac.com
>>    <http://us.mc325.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cwconrad2@mac.com>>     wrote:
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >> From: Carl Conrad<cwconrad2 at mac.com
>>    <http://us.mc325.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cwconrad2@mac.com>>
>>    >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 11:24
>>    >> To: "Mike Burke"<michaelgburk at yahoo.com
>>    <http://us.mc325.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michaelgburk@yahoo.com>>
>>    >> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>    <http://us.mc325.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>    >> Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 10:31 PM
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:15 PM, Mike Burke wrote:
>>    >>> Would a more acurate translation of John 11:24 be "though he
>>    were dead, yet shall he live," or "though he may die, yet shall he
>>    live"?
>>    >> I suspect you mean John 11:25, the clause, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ
>>    κἂν ἀποθάνῃ ζήσεται, [hO PISTEUWN EIS EME KAN APOQANHi ZHSETAI.
>>    >>
>>    >> "though he were dead ... " = "even if he were dead" -- Are you
>>    seriously suggesting that? That's a present counterfactual
>>    condition ("even if he were dead (which he is not), ..."
>>    >>
>>    >> The Greek text is what's called a future more vivid condition.
>>    KAN APOQANHi indicates the possitibility that the believer may at
>>    some time die; so, it should be something like, "Even if he does
>>    die (ever), he will live."







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